I. Supernatural Realms — the Origin

Important to Note: this chapter is written more towards those individuals who seek out deliverance counseling, and to warn them away from so-called “ministries and ministers” who teach the ungodly doctrines of demons that we have outlined in this book. We are hopeful that by sharing our experiences with one particular “deliverance counselor” and his false ministry, others who have been duped and harmed by him and other such false ministers and ministries will have the courage to share with others how they, too, fell into deception, and found deliverance through Jesus Christ alone.

To recap the two categories of meanings that charismatics are applying to “realms:”

The exoteric (common) meanings and understanding of the word “realm” are as follows:

1. Realms are descriptive of a place in the physical or in the spiritual.

2. Realms are commonly used to describe the non-physical space that houses the energy surrounding a person, as well as the influence and authority they have because of that energy, such as “realm of influence” or “realm of authority.”

● The word “realm” can also be replaced with “sphere,” so the phrases might be “sphere of influence,” “sphere of authority,” et cetera. Sometimes the word “dimension” is used in place of realm.

3. The word “realm” is commonly used by Christians to refer to the Kingdom of God, and is used to describe heavenly places.

The esoteric (hidden or secret) meanings and understanding of the word “realm” are as follows:

1. Realms are the spiritual substance that constitutes a spirit. In other words, it is taught that while the physical body houses the physical things — muscles, bones, organs, etc. — inside a spirit are realms. So sometimes the terms “realm” and “spirit” are used interchangeably, because they say a realm is a place within a spirit.

2. Realms are the sphere of influence and authority that their spirit has.

3. Realms are heavenly places (sometimes found within their spirit) that are ruled by their spirit.

We have written much on realms in the “Shining Ones” chapter, so there isn’t too much more to add on those points. However, there is one additional fact that is important to consider: the origin of this doctrine on realms.

■ Who is Leading Whom Astray?

As of this writing, one “deliverance minister,” claiming to be a life-coach and acting as a counselor to some dissociative individuals, is teaching on a particular application of realms. His beginning teachings on realms are outlined in his Bible study titled “In Christ” — the teachings that claim Jesus is a realm who is in us, and we are realms and are in him. We’ve gone into some detail about these teachings in the section of this book titled “Realms.”

This “minister/counselor” is claiming that his doctrine on realms came as a revelation from God, but as we’ve pointed out in the “Shining Ones” chapter, it did not come from God nor from Scripture.

Based on our own experiences with that man, we believe that the foundational support for his initial theology on “realms” and “In Christ” were largely based on his early experiences with some of his dissociative clients during counseling sessions, who were seeing and interacting with a “Jesus” in their system. We briefly discussed “Jesus programming” in a separate chapter in this book, but the point we are trying to make in this chapter is that this “deliverance minister” had been using the experiences of those clients who came to him for help in getting away from the occult — experiences both in their private, personal, confidential “deliverance counseling” sessions with him and experiences and knowledge from their occult past that they or their alters shared with him in the privacy of said counseling sessions — to confirm and build his personal theologies, including realms. He then shared his custom-built theology with others, trying to pass it off as a “Christian” theology and as a “revelation from God” that was given to him by God.

Please understand: even if he was, as we highly suspect, using the counseling experiences of his clients to confirm and build his initial theology on realms (as outlined in his Bible study, “In Christ”), he still directly built the theology on realms. He is responsible for what he did, not his clients.

However, while we only suspect he used his clients to confirm and build his initial theology on realms, we know for a fact that much of the understanding of the occult application of realms (how to “engage” in the realms) was built from information that he manipulated out of his clients (we’ll explain how this manipulation took place in a moment). This information specifically involved personal realms: building and expanding them, operating out of them, connecting them to other realms, how they are supposedly connected to “heavenly” realms, using realms to wage a so-called “spiritual warfare,” et cetera.

And in the same way he built his initial theology on realms, he plied and pressed his clients and their alters (and, as will be explained in a moment, the supposed “personal angels” of some of these clients) for information about how to engage in supernatural realms. He then compiled the information he was able to get, and used it to build a more complete occult doctrine on realms that he is now passing off as a “Christian” doctrine.

He was also communicating with his own “Shining One spirit man” (this “Shining One” is actually a fallen angel, as clearly explained in point four of the Shining Ones chapter) to get much of the information about engaging realms, and then pulling information from his clients to give “confirmation” to what was already coming from the fallen angel he was interacting with. But just as with the initial teachings on realms, he was the one who built the occult theology, not his clients. He was just exploiting his clients for the information that he then used to confirm and build that false doctrine.

This man was not “led astray” by his mind-controlled clients, as some have claimed, either out of total ignorance, or in a pitiful attempt to protect and defend the perpetrator and victimize the victims. It is very clear that this man was consciously and actively seeking occult information that he could then use to build his own career. In fact, many who know this man personally, knows that in spite of how his fans and supporters view him and his various unbiblical theologies, he was building those doctrines long before he ever started working with his dissociative clients. If his interviews and podcasts are listened to closely, there is evidence to back this up. Furthermore, it is very clear to anyone who knows this man or who listens to his interviews with a discerning ear, that he was actually seeking understanding of his own occult experiences he had before he even started working with clients, and trying to reconcile those experiences with the Bible.1

Furthermore, what is also clear to us in retrospect, is that this man’s “mentor” who was teaching him techniques on how to be a so-called “deliverance minister” for dissociative people, is one of the ones who helped orchestrate the entire affair from the beginning. How? Because this mentor’s advice to this “deliverance minister,” particularly the advise to “bring Jesus into the memory,” was, in our opinion, what triggered specific programming. What “bringing Jesus into the memory” looked like in the counseling situation was that this “Jesus” was brought into the system of the client through suggestion and visualization. Not only was this “suggestion” reminiscent of programming, but looking back now, we can see that in some cases, this triggered the “Jesus programming,” if that program wasn’t already active within the clients. No doubt this “mentor” would heartily disagree with our assessment; however, as we were the ones on the receiving end of the “counseling” of the man he mentored, we are only expressing the results of said counseling.

If all this weren’t enough, this “deliverance minister” was contacted by another man, who was subsequently brought in to help “counsel” the dissociative clients. That man was the one who brought the “Spirit Man” programming into the entire counseling situation with the clients, therefore, he was also part of the infiltration of occult doctrine. Although, to be certain, the “deliverance minister” was open to everything that was said and done, and eager to experiment with the various techniques of that Spirit Man programming, not only on himself, but on his clients, as well.

So if anyone was being led astray, the clients were not leading the counselors astray. The counselors were leading the clients astray from the very beginning!

■ Details on Where the Information Came From

So while this information on “engaging realms” was pulled from several of his clients — we, the authors, know of at least five people who were used in this way, but it’s possible there were more than just these five — at this time, we are only privy to the details of the testimonies of two of these clients. This information came from two sources within those clients:

1. From the so-called “spirit woman” of one of his dissociative clients.

This “spirit woman” was the result of the “counselor” taking this client through the Spirit Man programming, and eventually this “spirit woman” took control of the entire system. The process of giving control of the system to the “spirit woman” was facilitated by the counselor, aided by the Seat of Dominion programming that was eventually inserted through “counseling,” and driven and secured by the Jesus programming and Angel programming that had been triggered early on in the “counseling” process. The Religious programing that was already in place, both general and trauma-based, reinforced all of these programs.

And, as is to be expected with the Spirit Man programming, it turned out the “spirit woman” of this client was actually a compilation of demonically-controlled occult alters that had assumed the role of the spirit, and had taken over and infected the entire system of the client. These occult alters were also acting as gatekeepers, and when the “Shining Ones” teachings came into play during the counseling sessions, the occult alters were not only allowing open and free access to the demonic, but also to the particular fallen angel who this client had been bonded to through occult rituals from an early age.

The counselor then pushed to get information from these occult alters who were posing as the “human spirit,” and as a result, they shared what they knew. He subsequently took some of this information and used it to confirm and build upon his personal philosophy, particularly in regards to supernatural realms and heavenly places. Eventually he began sharing with others this information, as if it were a “new revelation from God,” and a “true, sound, Biblical theology.”

2. From so-called “personal angels” that both clients were able to contact and communicate with. The “minister/counselor” would use the clients much like occult mediums would be used, asking questions of the so-called angels, seeking answers that the clients would then relay back to him.

At the time, the clients did not realize that the counselor was going to use this information to build a so-called “Biblically-based theology” that was being used outside of their personal counseling sessions. Nor did they realize they had been duped, and their counselor was seeking information to confirm and build upon his occult doctrines.

What it boils down to, is that these two clients — and many others like them — were and have been exploited. The trust all the clients placed in who were supposed to be “qualified Biblical counselors and coaches” was violated by what ended up being a phony “deliverance minister” and his entire team of bogus professionals. Many of them claim to have “degrees” from various schools, but as of this writing, no proof has been given of these degrees that qualify them to counsel. And of the “schools” these people claim to have attended that supposedly gives them their qualifications, not all are accredited universities. They are, in other words, diploma mills.

Not only are these so-called “life coaches and counselors” not qualified in the least to deal with clients who are dissociative, but they aren’t even qualified to give sound, Biblical, spiritual advice and guidance, either, evidenced by the doctrines of demons they practice and promote.

These things said, these now two ex-clients, after thinking back on their time with this counselor, believe it possible that the truth of the origin of their so-called angels could be one of the following possibilities, or a combination of the following possibilities:

1.  It is possible the “angels” were alters, similar to an “ISH” (internal self-helper), who were either:

○ a newly-formed alter, born from the type of emotional, mental, and spiritual trauma that is unique to this unfortunate “deliverance counseling,” who took on the role of an angel;

○ or, an ISH that had been around for quite some time, who either:

■ had always believed himself or herself to be an angel.2

■ or had recently started to believe himself or herself to be an angel, through the “deliverance counseling” process.

This may be connected to “Angel programming,” but not necessarily.

Important to Note:

This has been stated earlier, but it bears repeating:

It’s not very unusual for an individual with DID, particularly those who have been programmed or gone through satanic/sadistic ritual abuse, to have alters who believe themselves to be angels, demons, animals, inanimate objects, or to even be dead. What is unusual, however, is for a counselor or coach to believe that his client has an alter that actually is a demon, an angel, an animal, an inanimate object, or is dead.

2. It’s possible that the “angels” were part of an Angel programming. There are a couple different possibilities of which we, the authors, are aware:

○ A pre-existing Angel programming could have been triggered during the counseling sessions. This would be latent programming that had been inserted into the individual’s system many years ago, and was triggered at a certain point in the “counseling” process.

■ Although any pre-existing program within the individual can likely be used, the authors are aware of the possibility that a pre-existing “Queen of Hearts” programming could have been used as a carrier of the Angel programming.

■ Any other pre-existing program could have triggered the latent Angel programming, but the Jesus programming seems to be the likely culprit, although this may not be true in every case.

○ It’s possible that through the counseling sessions, a new Angel programming script was inserted.

■ This would have been facilitated by the counselor who was acting as a programmer, and would have been aided by other programming scripts, such as the more specific Jesus programming or the more general Religious programming.

3. It’s also possible the so-called “angels” were demons or fallen angels in disguise that had entered in through the “deliverance counseling” process, something that can also be related to Angel programming.

We have said this before, but it bears repeating. In order to understand how these demons can come in without the person being aware or purposefully opening themselves up to that demonic influence and control, you have to understand how closely programming and the demonic are related. When dealing with individuals who have been programmed through trauma-based mind control, demons assist the programmers in various ways, including:

○ to keep alters hidden from the front alter (the person themselves who is actively involved in everyday life)

○ to direct the activities of the alters

○ to keep programming hidden and protected

○ to facilitate the triggering of programs

○ to ensure specific programs continue to run

Basically speaking, these programming scripts hold demons (or, demons hold the programming scripts), and when programming is triggered, demons are loosed, and some of them will take control of certain alters that have been set in place for that purpose. This is out of the control of the individual who has been programmed for this purpose, and many times it’s even out of their understanding as to what, exactly, is going on.

So, let’s assume it was the Jesus programming that was triggered first. When this took place, the demons who were already inside, holding that Jesus programming in place and ensuring it would continue to run as designed, would hold open the gateways of the spiritual space of the person, allowing the demonic to enter into the system of the individual, disguised as angels.

Whichever of these possibilities — or combination of possibilities — it is now clear to the ex-clients of this “deliverance counselor,” that they were being programmed through this “deliverance counseling.”

■ Our Personal Testimonies

How do we know all this, and how can we claim that what we have said about the origin of this doctrine to be true? We’re sure it’s very clear by now, but in case it’s not: we, the authors, were those two clients.

We can’t speak for the other clients we know who were used in such a heinous way, because we have not been given permission to do so. Quite understandably, it seems that some of them just want to try and pick up the pieces of their shattered lives and get on with things as best as they possibly can, putting it all behind them and trying to forget it ever happened. We feel that way ourselves quite often, and can’t blame them for that.

On the other hand, some of them don’t feel as if they were used and reprogrammed at all, so they have vehemently defended the “deliverance counselor” and his motley crew of unqualified personnel. While it is sad to see, their decision is between them and God, and we pray that they will come out of the delusion they have fallen prey to.

Speaking for ourselves, however, when we look back now, it’s unbelievable to us that we were purposefully deceived in such a shocking manner, and it’s grievous that we did not see that we were being used and exploited by our counselor — someone we trusted to help us gain freedom from occult ties — for him to confirm his occult doctrines, gain further occult knowledge, and to further his career, all the while, putting himself out there as a Biblically-sound, mature Christian.

After months of painful soul-searching, the question we kept coming up against was “How?” How did we get so entangled in the same mess that we had been either already delivered from (in Carolyn’s case) or were trying to get freedom from (in Loren’s case)?

It’s difficult to articulate the ins and outs of how this deception came about, because it’s very complicated, as matters generally tend to be. There are many different reasons for why we were able to be deceived and used in such a deplorable way, and this book isn’t the right place to share all the complex details; however, for now, we will share some, as it relates to the circumstances surrounding the “deliverance counseling,” that soon turned into a reprogramming and programming fiasco.

1. First and foremost, any counseling relationship, by its very nature, is one that is built on an imbalance of power. By this we mean, the “stronger” — the counselor — is helping the “weaker” — the client. This is actually the ideal situation. Why? Because if the counselor is “weaker” than the client, he or she will be of no help. They can offer no true guidance or advice. At the least, the counselor will be useless; at the worst, they will end up doing more harm than good. The Bible speaks to this principle in this way: “Can a blind man lead a blind man? Will they not both fall into a pit?” (Luke 6:39, BSB)

The point is, we were both in a counseling situation whereby we trusted the individual we were working with to be stronger than us and to help us. We have both experienced the same types of trauma related to mind-control programming and ritual abuse — had, in fact, been involved in many of the same occult projects, just at different times — and we were trusting someone who claimed to be (and whom we initially thought to be) a mature, Biblically-sound Christian. Furthermore, based on beginning conversations, we thought he had at least a basic understanding of trauma disorders and attachment injuries. We were led to believe that he was someone who could help us find understanding, healing, integration, and freedom through “deliverance counseling.” As it turns out, he absolutely was the wrong individual to trust. He was more interested in building his own career through the occult experiences of his clients, than he was interested in helping us find freedom and full deliverance from such experiences.

How we both came to trust this person is a related topic, but one that may be more appropriate to address at a different time, so as to not lose the focus of this book. But suffice to say, we came to trust him, much to our detriment. And once we finally realized that he was not trustworthy, and not qualified in the least to work with trauma survivors but wanted only to build his own business under the guise of “ministry,” we both distanced ourselves from him and his sham of a “ministry.” But by that time, the damage had already been done, both to us personally — mentally, emotionally, spiritually, and even physically, because of all the stress and because of subsequent astral attacks — and to our reputations.

2. We were also deceived through the process of the “deliverance counseling” itself, because by its very nature, it is not a Scriptural or a Godly form of counseling. Of course, we didn’t realize that at the time. We weren’t aware there were any dangers at all in that type of counseling. It seemed natural to us, as Christians, to talk to someone about the trauma we have experienced, and to have them pray with us, helping to facilitate a healing process whereby we could live a somewhat “normal” life. And that was how things started off in the counseling process for both of us. However, we soon came to realize that there is much more under the surface of this “deliverance counseling” than meets the eye. The heavy system work can very quickly turn into reprogramming as well as having previous programming triggered, as was the case with Loren in particular. Furthermore, the absolute ungodly doctrines of demons that often accompany this type of counseling is devastating for the individual. Sometimes the damage shows up sooner, sometimes it doesn’t show up until later. But it is damaging to the clients, and the so-called “Christian counselors” often get off scot-free, aided by a deceived and occult-seeking fan base that acts as their support group and watch dogs, all at the same time.

3. This “counseling” began to be more about traveling to so-called different realms and allowing him to engage in a supposed spiritual warfare. Although we were hopeful at the time that these things would bring positive results, the simple fact is, they did nothing to bring healing and understanding whatsoever, and did nothing to teach coping techniques for everyday, real life. It did, however, serve as a huge ego boost for said “counselor.”

4. In regards to Loren, this “counseling” quickly turned into a lot of heavy system work. In retrospect, these things should not have taken place within a counseling situation at all, regardless of what type of counseling it was. “System work” can very quickly turn into “programming” under certain circumstances, such as within a “deliverance counseling” situation, and that is never an acceptable practice.

So that was a huge problem: instead of finding freedom through “deliverance counseling,” Loren was being systematically re-programmed, under the guise of “system work.” This re-programming included awakening latent programming that had been previously inserted through mind-control programming, including Jesus programming and Angel programming.

In addition, new programming was inserted — in particular, the Spirit Man programming that was reinforced and held in place especially by Jesus programming, Angel programming, and Religious programming. This triggered the release of certain occult alters who eventually assumed the role of the “spirit,” and when the occult “Shining Ones” doctrines was added into the mix, and the Seat of Dominion programming was introduced, those demonically controlled alters held the gateways open for the fallen angel to come in and take over, bringing in even more demons who were controlling Loren through her so-called “spirit woman.” This added to the chaos of the flurry of occult activity that was already stirring inside her system, and to what was already an overwhelming flood of past memories.

5. In regards to Carolyn, she was susceptible to the deception and manipulation in large part because the style of counseling was very different for her. She did not do a lot of heavy system work the way many of the others did, although there was some. And since she had been working on her own healing journey for years, long before she ever met this “deliverance minister,” she had already worked through much of the trauma and programming issues, so she does not feel that she ran into as much re-programming as others did. However, she was susceptible to deception mainly because her counseling sessions were more along the lines of one friend speaking to another. It was nice for her to have someone willing to listen to the things she had experienced — all the occult activity she had been involved in and had found freedom from — and to pray with her about any lingering issues. And although she had been interviewing and writing articles for many years prior, she still appreciated the fact that she was given a new platform whereby she could warn even more people about the dangers of the occult, and to point them to Jesus Christ. She never thought her experiences, nor the things that came up in this “counseling,” would be used by this “counselor” to build, confirm, and support his own occult doctrine and to then be spread about as if it were Christian doctrine! Looking back now, it’s easy to see the red flags that had popped up over the course of their conversations, but at the time, she trusted him. This is something Carolyn deeply regrets.

Furthermore, she was dealing with constant illness and physical issues that kept her in a state of “survival” rather than “thriving.” Because of this, she didn’t realize occult techniques were being implemented with other clients. She was being lied to and kept in the dark concerning the false, overtly occult doctrine that was being taught in counseling sessions with other survivors. She was also in the dark concerning “support groups” on social media where certain “ministry leaders” and other supporters were teaching occult doctrines to others outside of regular counseling sessions. One reason for Carolyn not realizing this was taking place, was because her illness had rendered her unable to keep up with what was going on. But the other reason was because some of these groups were “secret,” and she had no knowledge of them until others told her after she had already separated herself from this false ministry and had made a public announcement concerning that separation.

She also didn’t realize her own testimony of how her Heavenly Father brought her out of the occult was being used to further this “deliverance counselor’s” own occult agenda, because by the time his occult agenda was clear, she had been very ill for months, and had stopped listening to any of his podcasts that would have given her pause and concern. Even her private conversations between the two of them had slowed down considerably, so she wasn’t aware of the overtly occult attitudes that had taken hold of him.

In addition, even though she was on the board of this “ministry,” meetings were being held without her being given notice, and decisions were being made without her knowledge or input.

But in spite of her illness, and in spite of things purposefully being kept from her, anytime she would become aware of something that gave her pause — something that didn’t quite seem right to her — she would question it, and she was either flat-out lied to, or given an answer that didn’t quite answer the questions she had. Being so ill, however, she had no energy to investigate further, and since she had heard no negative reports from others up to that point, she dropped the subject. It was only after she began feeling better, and began hearing reports from others about the occult activities and doctrines that were being spread about in private counseling sessions, and in more public Bible studies, and in private Facebook groups, that she began to investigate further. She then discovered that occult doctrine had, in fact, infiltrated and saturated the entire ministry. Alarmed at what had taken place right under her nose, she tried, in vain, to correct the situation with the “ministry leaders,” including her “counselor,” and her counselor’s mentor. However, in an effort to control her, bring her “back into the fold,” and to cover their tracks, they lied to her. She then went public with her decision to distance herself from this “ministry,” in an attempt to protect other survivors who had trusted her discernment concerning this ministry. As a result, she was publicly and privately attacked, and viciously slandered (lied about) by the ministry leaders and staff as they attempted to soil her reputation in what was an obvious attempt to cover their tracks, and to keep others (the clients or potential clients) in the fold.

In spite of all these reasons and others that are too complicated to get into right now, the bottom line is, we were both deceived, exploited, manipulated, lied to, and lied about. Our “counselor” whom we trusted, and who was supposed to have a “higher level of spiritual discernment,” had absolutely no discernment whatsoever, and a large part of this deception had to do with the so-called “personal angels” that were in our systems. He believed the beings that we were communicating with and who were inside our systems were angels; and, since we trusted his judgement, we (and our parts) went along with this narrative.

This manipulation took place over the course of several different sessions, and it took place differently for the two of us.

For Loren, Angel programming was triggered first through an alter who was actually an ISH (internal self helper). However, through the counseling situation that triggered this Angel programming, this ISH began to believe herself to be an angel. Loren, too, came to believe this to be true, and this deception was reinforced by the Jesus programming and the Religious programming.

As of this writing, Carolyn isn’t certain, as she felt at the beginning that the “angel” was actually an ISH, as well; but over time, she, too, became convinced that her ISH was an “angel.”

But regardless, the deception (and systematic programming) included him sharing details with us about the sessions with some of his other clients who believed they had angels in their systems,3 and even included bringing Scripture into the conversation every once in a while. He never came right out and said, “That being inside your system is an angel.” It was simply suggested, though several weeks worth of conversation as he primed us to become open to “angels being in our system.”

So why were the “suggestions” so bad? Aren’t we grown women who have some semblance of intelligence, so as to not be so influenced by such blatant false doctrine? Well, up until that point, we thought that about ourselves, too, which is why it is grievous to the both of us to realize how we fell for such deception. But the three main factors that contributed to our deception was the trust we placed in the “counselor,” suggestion, and programming.

If you don’t understand already, please allow us to briefly explain how this works.

When someone is “inside their system,” such as during a counseling session to do system work, this creates a state of dissociation, to one extent or another. The average, non-dissociative person might relate to the word “hypnotized.” When in this state of dissociation, the individual is very open to suggestion, and any such suggestions will lead to the individual being programmed by those suggestions, or, if they are a survivor of TBMC, into having previous programming triggered. Any counselor who has any understanding about dissociative orders should understand this fact. This is, very basically, how even trauma-based programming works: through trauma, the programmer induces a dissociative state; alters are born from that trauma, and some are given identities; then, through suggestion, through working with the imagination of the individual (visualization), and with the assistance of the demonic, they insert scripts, giving direction (“jobs”) to the parts of that person to do or say or believe certain things under particular conditions. This is programming, simply explained.

This is exactly what happened to Loren in particular. Because of the system work, Loren was dissociative, open to suggestion, and vulnerable to programming. No, it wasn’t necessarily the more understood “trauma-based” programming in that there was no physical trauma. But there was still emotional, mental, and spiritual trauma for many different reasons, the least of all was a retraumatization by memory flooding, and having absolutely no help or support in processing through those floods of memories.

And this is why we urge people to stay away from system work when in any counseling situation. Just the fact that you are working inside your system is going to put you into a dissociative state. And doing heavy system work can unlock memories, sometimes a lot all at once, that bring a flood of overwhelming emotions and thoughts. This is a retraumatization, and when this trauma is coupled with the suggestion that comes along with system work — even suggestion that is made accidentally by a well-meaning counselor — it can cause programming to be inserted or previous programming to be triggered. It’s better to not take a chance with your own mental, emotional, and spiritual health, and simply stay away from doing any system work with others. Ask your Heavenly Father to work things out in your system. If you feel strong enough to do system work on your own, even light system work, that is your own call, but we strongly urge that you use extreme caution even then. Be very careful, and don’t get trapped inside your system, where you would rather stay on the inside than live real life. Be aware of your own emotional, mental, and spiritual state.

We feel, however, that heavy system work is safest when you simply ask your Heavenly Father to take care of things as you consciously become aware of them. We previously talked about this in the chapter titled, “On System Work.”

All that said, these “suggestions,” made particularly when being in a dissociative state, were to prime us to become open to “angels” being in our system, and to feel comfortable talking to them, at least within a counseling situation. When it finally became a concept we accepted and welcomed as being true, he began using us to talk to these “angels” for a variety of reasons, including:

● to answer questions he had about spiritual matters.

● to confirm his own doctrinal beliefs that he was hearing from what he considered to be “God,” and later on, from what he thought was his “Shining One spirit man.”

● to confirm what the so-called “angels” of his other clients had told them.

● and ultimately, to confirm and build his occult doctrine on realms.

This is not to shove the whole of the blame off on him. Obviously, our discernment was off, too, and we are painfully aware of that fact. After all, is it more of an honor and privilege to speak to angels? Or to speak directly with our Heavenly Father, Creator of all? However, the fact that our discernment was off was never a question. Of course it was off. That was the point of counseling, and why we thought we needed spiritual help from someone who was more qualified than us. We were not out to influence and infiltrate his “ministry” with occult doctrine, as some (including this so-called “DID life-coach”) have since accused us of. We were there seeking help for healing, to gain understanding (discernment) about the truth of what we had been through, how to avoid it in the future (wisdom), and to completely close the door to the occult. But the fact that we were used by the demonic — through the reprogramming of the deliverance counseling and the doors that opened to the demonic — and the fact that we were manipulated and lied to by the counselor who was being used by the demonic, causes us grief in our hearts that will weigh heavy on us for a very long time.

So although there are many different reasons why we were so deceived, it still didn’t completely answer the how. And the how is important, because if we didn’t get to the root cause of what had caused the both of us to fall into such grave error, then we would be very likely to fall into the same error later on in life. And next time, it might be much, much worse, as hard as that was for us to fathom. And so, in the process of this painful soul-searching, God showed us two very simple, but important points where we had gone wrong.

1. First, we put mankind before Him, and trusted people rather than Him.

2. Second, we were not diligent in lining up everything that was said and done throughout the counseling process with the written Word of God that was being interpreted properly within context, including counselor/client interactions outside of counseling sessions, such as “Bible” studies. The both of us have different reasons for why we failed to do this — trusting who we thought was our “Christian counselor,” dealing with personal illness, being lied to, and programming within the counseling sessions being four such reasons. But the important thing is that we realized we had failed to keep Scripture — the written Word of God, interpreted properly and in context — as our plumb line.

These things were our own fault, and we have taken full responsibility for our error, have repented, and are working on making it right. The main lesson we learned from the entire devastating fiasco is to focus on our relationship with our Heavenly Father. Everything else — learning to trust Him, learning to hear His voice, finding healing, finding purpose — stems from that. This lesson has been extremely difficult, painful, and shameful for the both of us to learn. It has been humbling, to say the least, but we also know that God wants us to be humble before Him, and we are glad that He loves us enough to show us where we are wrong. So if we have had to stumble and fall hard in order for others to be warned and saved from the same traps we fell into, then what we have gone through is worth it.

■ A Scripture to Consider

Galatians 1:8 — “But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.” (KJV)

Had our “counselor” been discerning, he would not have taken any information from any of his clients and used it to confirm and/or help form his theology. Neither would he have been using his clients as a medium through which he was seeking after occult knowledge.

Had we been discerning, we would not have relied on the discernment of others, but would have gone straight to the Word of God to find out for ourselves what the Bible says about matters.

People are fallible; the Word of God is not. Wise Christians rely on Scripture as the only source of their theology; they do not go to Scripture simply as a way to find passages to incorrectly interpret so as to fit the thoughts or philosophies of themselves or others.

The wise and effective counselor does not purposefully manipulate their dissociative clients, pulling out occult information and using it to confirm and build his or her theology. Neither does the wise and effective counselor take the past or present experiences, thoughts, and opinions that their dissociative clients and alters share with him or her in the setting of a private, confidential counseling session as being something that is automatically reliable, Scriptural theology.

Everything — even personal experiences — must line up with the Word of God if it is to be taken as something that is authored by God.


1Here’s but one resource that proves what we are saying is true: https://youtu.be/ihXJWiAe0CI. Take note of the date that he mentions around the 1:24 mark — 2011. This was before he met Carolyn, before he met Loren, and even before he has claimed to start working with any other dissociative clients.

2Fritz Springmeier and Cisco Wheeler mention angel alters on page 437 of the book they wrote, The Illuminati Formula Used to Create an Undetectable Mind Controlled Slave.www.loveforlife.com.au/files/total_mind_controlled.pdf.

3In case it isn’t clear: since he mentioned their names to us, as well as specifics of their system, along with details of their counseling conversations, this was a flagrant breach of counselor/client confidentiality. This happened throughout the entire “counseling” situation with him. Not only is this immoral, but it is unethical as well. Were he an actual qualified, licensed counselor, this would be grounds to have his license taken away.

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