Over the past couple of days, the both of us (Carolyn and Loren) have received a series of emails from one particular individual to both our joint email account, as well as our personal email accounts, who is clearly upset about something that she either read in our book, read in our articles, said on our videos, or heard from somebody else. But rather than come right out and say what is upsetting to her, she instead threw an oddly worded accusation to Carolyn: “… do you actually not believe the following verses?”
(she then listed the following verses: Matthew 11:28, Revelation 3:20, Revelation 22:17, John 4:14, 1 Corinthians 1:9, and Colossians 3:11)
Carolyn chose not to respond because it was a very bizarre accusation to make, and the question was unnecessarily accusatory. Furthermore, Carolyn believed that if the lady had been reading our material, as she said she had been, then the lady ought to know that Carolyn absolutely believes the Word of God! So it was a waste of time to respond to such an odd accusation, and Carolyn ignored the email.
So the woman then emailed the both of us the next day with the simple statement to the both of us: “You truly don’t believe in Jesus?”
When we did not respond to that very strange email (because we had no idea HOW to respond to such a bizarre accusation!), she then emailed Loren this afternoon, two emails right after another. The first email didn’t make sense, but it was clear that she was falsely accusing us (or maybe just Loren) of saying that Psalm 119:11 was false doctrine. And her second email squished together Luke 8:11 and John 1:4, and then she said: “Don’t know whether you’re referring to some loonie doctrine in your writings or rejecting Scripture.”
(Loren finally responded personally to her, speaking on behalf of both herself and Carolyn — see A Message from Loren — but that’s not the point of this article.)
We have a pretty good idea (because we aren’t idiots) of what upset her so badly, but since she never came right out and said what was bothering her, we can’t be entirely sure what we’ve said (or the lies she’s heard from others) to warrant her falsely accusing us of not believing in Jesus and of rejecting Scripture.
Regardless, the entire situation has left the both of us quite puzzled, and we can only pray that this woman finds peace, and that the Spirit of God leads her to a proper understanding of and the proper application of Scripture.
But because we know how nasty rumors have a tendency to get started, we would like to make an declaration now, to clear up any “confusion” that anyone else may have.
Yes, we believe in Jesus Christ!
We think we’ve made it VERY clear in our book, in our articles, and in our videos, that we believe in Jesus, that He is the only begotten Son of God, that He is THE ONLY WAY to salvation, and that there is no other way to salvation except through Him!
Yes, we believe Scripture, in the proper interpretation of Scripture, and in the proper application of Scripture, and we do not reject any Scripture whatsoever!
We think we’ve made it VERY clear in our book, in our articles, and in our videos, that we believe and hold to Scripture as being the inspired Word of God, as being the plumb line by which everything else in our lives must align, and we are constantly encouraging people to read Scripture and to interpret it properly and within context!
Why these things have been brought into question is beyond us…!! Why we have been falsely accused of these things is beyond us…!!
But it’s not the first time we’ve been falsely accused. And it probably won’t be the last.
So… moving on!
Carolyn and Loren ❤
P.S. by Loren: this is something I never would have thought in a trillion years that I’d have to address, but another strange observation the lady expressed (not an accusation… just an observation, but one I’d like to publicly clear up, in case anyone else has been under the same misconception) is that she had thought I was a “guy,” and that she “wasn’t quite sure what I was.” Well, to set the record straight, I’m a “who,” not a “what.” And I’m female, was born a female, I’ve always been a female, I’ve always “identified” as female, and I’ve never pretended or said otherwise. So hopefully this publicly clears up any misconceptions anyone else has had or may have about my gender. 🙂
UPDATE by Loren
6/22/19 and 6/26/19
⇒ NOTE: After some additional thought and additional Bible study, I have come to the realization that I have not been very clear on what I am trying to convey… so I updated this section AGAIN (lol) on June 26th, to be more specific with my language and to hopefully clarify my position, as well as Carolyn’s position, on this topic.
The lady emailed Carolyn and finally mentioned what she was so upset about. She said that she was shocked when she read what we (Carolyn and I) wrote about Jesus NOT living in our “hearts.”
(and by “heart,” what I probably should have said — and I will now have to go correct my words — was “what people are calling the heart,” because many people are giving an occult interpretation to the “heart,” and are actually creating a “spiritual space” within themselves, much like the “system” of those who are dissociative, and are opening this space up to the demonic to enter.)
We (Carolyn and I) suspected this was the problem, but we sure wish that instead of trying to open the conversation by throwing out accusations, that she just would have said what she was so upset about from the very beginning. It sure would have made things easier.
At any rate, we are very sorry that she was/is so shocked by that statement, and I do understand why such a statement would be shocking to someone who has not been taught Scripture properly.
I was not taught properly, either, and in the UPC/Apostolic churches I was raised in, I was taught that “being saved” was speaking in tongues. Truthfully, though, I never heard or used the term “get saved” or “being saved”…. We “sought the Holy Ghost” and “asked Jesus for the Holy Ghost,” but we never “got saved.” That term just wasn’t used in the churches I went to.
At any rate, we sought the gift of tongues as evidence that we had been filled with the Holy Ghost, and there were no teachings on a true, Biblical view of salvation. So while my intentions may have been good, it was based upon faulty doctrine.
After leaving those churches, I then went to another unbiblical extreme, where I was taught that salvation was “asking Jesus into my heart.” And again, my intentions were good, but it was based upon faulty doctrine!
The truth is, neither extreme is a balanced, Biblical view on salvation, and both times I came to that realization, it was a shock for me, too. So I understand why coming across that information was shocking.
However, we (Carolyn and I) do stand by what we have said: the person of Jesus does not reside in or live within a “spiritual space” inside of us whom many, because they are misapplying Scripture, are incorrectly believing is “their heart.” Furthermore, Scripture does not teach that salvation is “asking Jesus into your heart.”
The Bible does teach that at the point of salvation, the Spirit of God dwells within you. But not the person of Jesus Christ.
(And I say “the person of Jesus Christ,” because people are misapplying Scripture and “going inside” themselves, to a spiritual space within them — whether they call it their heart, their system, or whatever else — and conversing with and interacting with a spiritual being who is claiming to be the person of Jesus. And this is NOT the proper application of Scripture! That is what occultists do; this is not what Christians should do!)
The verses you have given to us (as listed above) to try to prove your point of Jesus residing within this type of “spiritual space,” do not have mean what you are trying to say they mean! In other words, Carolyn and I are trying to warn others of an occult application of Scripture, and the verses you shared do not give allowances for this occult application of Scripture of “going inside” to interact with “Jesus.” Or “angels.” Or any other spiritual being, no matter what name or title they give themselves.
Please ask the Father to open your eyes to the truth, not only of what we are trying to warn people about (and we will do or best to be more precise with our language so as to hopefully avoid misunderstandings), but to also help you properly understand, properly interpret, and properly apply His Word to your life.
We’ve written some about this subject in our book, and we’ve touched on it in various articles here and there. I can’t remember all the places Carolyn and I have talked about a Biblical view on salvation and related topics, but here are some places:
The bulk of this chapter is dedicated to explaining why the teachings on “realms” (and other teachings that are closely related to it, such as the teachings on “dominionism,” etc), as taught and practiced by some individuals in charismatic environments, is a demonic doctrine. However, we do give a short explanation about it NOT being Biblical for the person of Jesus to reside in our spiritual space, by whatever name that space is being described (heart… realm… system… etc.). It’s important to understand that the false teaching of salvation being when you “ask Jesus into your heart” is leading an increasing number of Christians to fall prey to being led by an antichrist who they mistakenly believe to be the True Jesus Christ! So rather than following the True Jesus Christ of the Bible; and rather than being guided by His instructions that are already in the Bible; and rather than being led by the Spirit of God (Who will lead into TRUTH… truth that will ALWAYS line up with the written Word of God); they are instead “going inward,” (into their “prayer closet,” their “system,” their “realm,” or whatever name they want to call their inside spiritual space), and being led by the “Jesus” they find in that space.
This is no different than an occultist being led by a “spirit guide!” And some occultists are led by a spiritual being that they believe to be Jesus, as well…! So, if “Jesus being inside your heart” (or realm… or system… or spiritual space…) is evidence of salvation, then what about the occultists, who could say the same thing?!
Do you think this is different for you, because you call yourself a Christian? Why do you believe that you can practice something unbiblical, but it not be unbiblical, because you call yourself a Christian? Why do you believe that you can practice as the occultists practice, yet it not be occult because you call yourself a Christian? Many occultists practice the occult, yet call themselves Christian! What makes you any different?
(I’m not necessarily directing these questions at the woman who emailed us, because I don’t know to what extent she’s been led astray by “asking Jesus into her heart.” But these are questions for anyone who has fallen prey to this doctrine and who is interacting with a “Jesus” within their spiritual space.)
These questions are not to be hateful. These are the questions I had to ask myself, too! They are to try to get you to THINK!
This is just a heartbreaking deception! And it’s so simple to avoid! If we simply line everything up with the Word of God that has been properly interpreted within context, then we won’t be fooled by an antichrist.
I think it’s difficult to talk about this topic, personally speaking, because of the differing definitions that people are giving to describe “heart.” And also because the occult application of this Scriptural doctrine is confusing to some people, and they are mixing or mistaking the Biblical meaning and application with the occult meaning and application. And since it’s obviously hard for me to know the right words to use to describe what I’m talking about, it’s clear that I haven’t done a very good job of warning people of this danger…. And I’ll work on that. 🙂
So, it’s obvious that this topic will probably need to be addressed more fully in the future, and with greater precision of language than we have used thus far, but I hope what Carolyn and I have written here helps you gain some understanding about what we mean. 🙂
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