Notice: the book being discussing throughout this article is “The Shining Man with Hurt Hands,” by Ellis Skolfield. If you are a dissociative survivor, I do NOT recommend you read this book, as it is triggering and disturbing.
As promised in the last article I wrote, I want to address several key points from a couple of emails that we received from an individual who is advocating a particular type of “healing from dissociation” that involves “finding and working with Jesus” (and a counselor-type of person) to “navigate inside the system” of a person who is dissociative.
There was so much packed into his two emails that I’m not going to be able to address everything. But this article is an attempt to address some of the more important points that I would like to talk about, plus a couple of minor ones that are easily addressed.
First, I would like to take some time to address my qualifications to respond to the emails that the man sent to us.
Because my observations over the past 2-plus years of working with Carolyn on this website have brought me to the conclusion that when people email both Carolyn and I from our joint website, to open a conversation or to ask questions about topics that the both of us have addressed many times over the past two years that we have been working together, and when they then make a very clear point to try to push me out of the conversation (as the author of these two emails politely did), it is most often because they don’t know me, and in spite of what I’ve been doing with Carolyn over the past two years, they don’t believe I have the qualifications and the authority to speak on the topics they are wanting to discuss.
Therefore, here is the list of my qualifications in responding to the particular set of emails that I will be addressing in this article. Please keep them in mind as you read.
1. First, I am not a mental health professional (see our Disclaimer). However, I write this article based upon the sound interpretation of Scripture (in other words, exegesis, not eisegesis), as well as my own experiences.
Note: truth doesn’t cling to me nor does it belong to me; but I try to cling to and belong to the truth. Therefore, as always, if you believe I have misused or misinterpreted Scripture and do not have a proper understanding of any Biblical doctrine that is addressed in this article, please contact me to let me know, giving clear Scripture to back what you are saying, so that I can check it out for myself.
2. Concerning my personal experiences, I have a dissociative disorder, complete with alters and an inside system. So I am well-acquainted with the descriptions in the email that the man wrote to us concerning D.I.D. and related dissociative disorders.
Note: if you have no idea what dissociation is or what it is about, this article may not make too much sense to you, so to get a basic overview of dissociation (with an emphasis on “Dissociative Identity Disorder”), you can read this article:
3. This dissociative disorder came about through four avenues: an abusive home life, an abusive and cult-like religious environment, satanic ritual abuse (SRA), as well as being subjected to what is commonly known as “trauma-based mind-control programming” or, “TBMC.”
My point is this: please know that I have experiential knowledge (first-hand knowledge through my experiences) about issues surrounding dissociation, as well as first-hand understanding of mind-control programming and how it works.
4. And lastly, I have read the PDF book that the man emailed us about, and I am intimately familiar with the “counseling” techniques, as well as similar “healing methods,” that are lauded by the man who emailed Carolyn and I.
The emails were long (this is not a complaint, but simply an observation; I don’t mind long emails), and even though the main topic was dissociation and the healing process, there was just a lot, and it’s hard to know where to start. But I’ll do my best. 🙂
There were a lot of unscriptural ideas that need to be addressed. Some of them have nothing to do with the topic of this email and so they probably won’t be addressed in this article. But many of them Carolyn and I meticulously detailed in our book, so I hope that the man who emailed us is able to take some time to read our book, and I pray that he is able to read it with understanding and to take some time to seriously reflect upon the words we have written and to test it against Scripture.
As is common with a lot of people who contact Carolyn, he also expressed the misconception about Carolyn being former Illuminati, and I will briefly address that here.
And one thing he mentioned was something that he was told by an individual from Bride Ministries whom he had contacted. Because of my personal experiences with Dan Duval and with the original “Bride Ministries D.I.D. support group”, I know for a fact that what he was told was a lie. Although, to be fair, I’m assuming that the lie was told out of ignorance of the facts, and not to be purposefully misleading. So, I’m going to briefly address that in this article, too, because it has direct bearing upon the entire premise of the email, and upon my experiences (and hence, my qualifications) concerning the book in question, as well as the counseling techniques that are described in the book.
So, here is a sampling of direct quotes from the email that I will write about in this article:
“Repressed emotions are the whole driving factor behind why we sin.”
“I worked with multiples for five years so I know quite a bit about it (I don’t believe in charging people so I never did…I just did it because I loved to help people and was made for it).”
“…it sucks what happened with Duval. Sorry to hear that. While listening to you [Carolyn] and him in interviews, I got a bad feeling from him and just tried to put it to the side because he was telling about aspects of what I used to do to help multiples in the inside world (other dimensions). I didn’t do the whole deliverance thing.”
“I never went inside the inside world with alters (that’d be full-on New Age Luciferian stuff). The alters just told me what they saw inside and I’d help them navigate.”
“I had spirits try to impersonate me inside of some multiples’ systems. I told them not to trust that that was me when I wasn’t there working with them because I never asked my “spirit” to do anything like the t. I don’t even know if that’s possible. Ellis [Skolfield] said multiples had seen him inside at times, too, while he was working with them.”
“I’d just show people how to find Jesus inside and how to test Him a few ways to know for sure it was Him.”
“My goodness, we came across sooooo many false Jesuses. Tons.”
“1 John 4:2 says a spirit that’s not from God cannot say Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. Has to be “is” come in the flesh, not “has” come in the flesh. The KJV got it right with “is” come in the flesh and evil spirits cannot say it. Works really well as one of the tests.”
“I learned from Ellis Skolfield who wrote The Shining Man with Hurt Hands, which is about his experience helping multiples.”
“Don’t worry, his “shining man” title was chosen strictly because the alters would see Jesus inside and say He shines and has wounds in His hands.”
“I sometimes found that there was an alter in the system who was actually an angel. Ellis found that at times, but when the multiple would fully integrate, the alter would find out he or she was an angel and would go with God because he wasn’t needed anymore.”
“I learned a lot from my days working with multiples.”
“… using the method I used, when a multiple would fully integrate, all of their health issues would go away. We’re talking terminal diseases, incurable diseases, weight issues, etc. They’d all just vanish. If they were grossly overweight, they’d drop weight in record time until they reached their optimum average healthy weight. “
“I was so upset that I could help multiples heal but couldn’t use the same method to help myself since I couldn’t see my inside world.”
“I eventually developed a method anyone can use to heal their physical issues through dealing with the subconscious’s repressed emotions and beliefs. But it’s not easy. Gotta have good, sound beliefs and you need to know psychology to a degree so you can pick out the psychological patterns and address them with your subconscious. Thankfully, though, really good hypnotherapist know how to unlock the subconscious and make changes to fix health and emotional problems. Unfortunately, they usually don’t deal in beliefs so they can’t get too terribly deep. But it’s still encouraging that they know a method similar to mine that really helps people heal.”
“Being in the Illuminati, I wonder if they told you about the Catholics literally creatint Islam.”
“I’d contact Bride Ministries. They responded by trying to get me to buy one of their lesson plans to learn how Daniel works with multiples. I told them I was hoping to speak with Daniel to discuss Ellis’s method and [name redacted]…. They responded by saying they were aware of [name redacted] ministry but not Ellis’s.”
So, yeah… it’s a lot. And there was plenty more. That’s just a sample, and is what I will directly address in this article.
Summary and My First Response
To summarize everything that this individual wrote, the main topic of his emails was “healing,” with the primary focus on those who are dissociative, and a secondary focus on those who are not dissociative.
The healing process he described for dissociative individuals basically centered around two central themes (“finding Jesus on the inside” and “navigating the system with the help of another person”), with the key goal of “finding and integrating all the parts” in order to bring total healing to the person.
And for those who are not dissociative, he expressed that in order to heal physical and emotional issues, one had to use his methods (that he didn’t detail too much about) in order to subconsciously deal with repressed emotion and beliefs (what he considers to be the “driving factor behind why we sin”).
Based off of everything he wrote to us, it seems to both Carolyn and I that he did not read a bit of the book that Carolyn and I wrote. So, my first response is: READ OUR BOOK.
We originally started writing the book to give a fuller explanation as to “Why We Left Bride Ministries,” but since the demonic doctrines that we wrote about were being implemented through Duval’s so-called “counseling” (but in order to get around laws that govern mental health care, they called it “coaching“), we also addressed dissociation and healing from dissociation.
And two of the things that we warned people about in our book are exactly what was described in the email: “finding Jesus on the inside” and “navigating the system with the help of another individual.”
Before You Read: An Important Notice to the Man Who Emailed Us
I realize that much of what follows will likely be offensive to you (the individual who wrote us the emails). But I would like to tell you upfront that I am not trying to be offensive, and I hope that if you take offense, that you forgive me and are able to take a quiet moment and consider my words. Because I’m not trying to be offensive. I am simply trying to tell you the truth, because you came to us and opened up the conversation. And I believe that the truth is best understood when it is plainly spoken.
It is my sincere hope that you will at least consider what I have to say. I’m not asking you to agree. I would just like you to give a careful consideration. That’s all.
When Carolyn and I receive emails, if we personally respond, it’s usually as I’ve previously described: we have a conversation (sometimes several conversations), and then I write out some things based upon the thoughts and experiences that both of us have had. And when the email is large, I usually copy/paste key questions or comments, and follow them with my response, so I’ll do the same here.
I find it’s an easier way to deal with a lot of different ideas and topics at once. 🙂
You said: “Repressed emotions are the whole driving factor behind why we sin.”
My response: What Scripture is this idea based upon? Please share the verses you are using, because I’d like to study those verses for myself.
You said: “I worked with multiples for five years so I know quite a bit about it (I don’t believe in charging people so I never did…I just did it because I loved to help people and was made for it).”
My response: I understand that working with multiples was (perhaps still is) part of your identity and purpose (those are very powerful motivating forces). But I’m curious: what actual qualifications do you have to work with those who have dissociative disorders?
Here’s what I mean: your role in “working with multiples” that you have described throughout your email, is not simply one of being a friendly “support person,” and isn’t even describing the role of one who is qualified as a “pastoral counselor” who is counseling someone in the solutions that are found in the Word of God.
(Solutions, by the way, that always work, unlike your methods that, according to your own words, don’t always work… but more on that in a moment. 🙂)
But regardless of the techniques you use and regardless of the word you use to describe such a technique, you have described a full-on “counseling” situation.
(And, by the way, based on the words of your email, I realize that you may not quite understand this or even agree with it, but the type of “counseling” you have described is “deliverance counseling.” I’ll explain this in the next point. 🙂)
Hence my question: what are your qualifications to do such a job?
You mentioned that you “learned from Ellis Skofield,” but regardless of whether Ellis was or was not actually qualified to do what he did (and I’ll briefly address that in a moment, too…), that has nothing whatsoever to do with your qualifications.
Do you see where I’m going with this?
In case you don’t see, let me be 100% clear: you gave no indication in your email that you are actually qualified to be a mental health counselor; so, unless you are a qualified mental health professional, stop acting as if you are! Being a “support person” is fine. Even being a qualified “Christian pastoral counselor” is fine, in my opinion, as long as the counsel is based upon the properly exegeted Word of God.
But “playing doctor,” so to speak, is wrong, regardless of whether you charge for your services or not.
Would you, by convincing desperate people who only want relief from their suffering, open up their brains and poke about, acting as if you were qualified to be a brain surgeon if you were not?
But it is no more ludicrous for you to pretend to be qualified as a brain surgeon when you are not, than for you, by your actions of “counseling” (by whatever technique you use, and by whatever word you use to describe such a technique), to act as if you are qualified to be a mental health professional (or a qualified Christian pastoral counselor) when you are not!
Please read this article I wrote, particularly the end, where I talk to survivors about the importance of getting help from qualified individuals:
The principles that I wrote about in the above-linked article apply to you, too. If you aren’t qualified to help people who have serious mental/emotional disorders or illnesses, as well as deep-rooted spiritual problems, then stop acting as if you are.
And if you are qualified as a mental health professional, then what I just said here doesn’t apply to you, so there should be no offense taken.
On the other hand, if you do have the qualifications of a Christian pastoral counselor, then you should be counseling people according to the Word of God… yet I saw nothing in your emails indicating that you are counseling people according to the Word of God! So if you do consider yourself to be a qualified Christian pastoral counselor, I urge you to go back to the foundation of Scripture and relearn the basics for yourself, because by reading your emails (and the other material you’ve written… but more on that in a moment), it’s clear to me that either you’ve forgotten the basics, or you were never taught them to begin with! And then you can start counseling people according to the TRUTH of the Word of God, and not according to your own ideas… or the ideas of Ellis… or anyone else, for that matter.
Side Notes to the Reader:
I hope that every single person with a dissociative disorder who is reading this GETS this point! It’s NOT okay to put your mental, emotional, and spiritual well-being into the hands of someone who is not even remotely qualified to give you proper counsel. Don’t allow anyone, regardless of whether you think they “have a good heart and good intentions” or not, take advantage of you by “counseling” you when they aren’t qualified. And them or their fan base SAYING they are qualified is not PROOF that they are qualified! So don’t allow yourself to be swindled!
Furthermore, regardless of whether you do the more traditional route to counseling or whether you choose to work with a type of pastoral counselor or someone similar, make sure that you line up everything — both word and deed — with the Word of God that has been properly interpreted within context!
Related to this thought, after having spoken to so many people over the past several years who are enmeshed in false doctrine, but who absolutely believe it to be Scriptural, I very nearly cringe when I admonish people to “line everything up with the Word of God that has been properly interpreted within context.” Why? Because an increasing number of Christians are falling into delusion because they are absolutely convinced that their false doctrine IS based upon Scripture that has been interpreted properly, and there’s no convincing them otherwise! Not only is it heartbreaking, but it’s also frustrating to try to reach these people! I can only take comfort in the fact that it is NOT my job to convince or to convict or to change others, but to simply share the truth. It is the job (the work) of the Spirit of God to convince and convict and change others! And having this in a proper perspective sure makes my job much easier! 😊
Anyhoo… back to the email and my responses….
You said: “…it sucks what happened with Duval. Sorry to hear that. While listening to you [Carolyn] and him in interviews, I got a bad feeling from him and just tried to put it to the side because he was telling about aspects of what I used to do to help multiples in the inside world (other dimensions). I didn’t do the whole deliverance thing.”
My response: You can’t have it both ways. You can’t say “Duval was talking about aspects of what I used to do to help multiples,” yet turn around and also say, “I didn’t do the whole deliverance thing.”
If you “did counseling” in a similar fashion as Duval “did/does counseling,” then you “did the whole deliverance thing.”
Besides, what you described throughout your email is deliverance counseling! Just because some of your techniques are slightly different than other people’s techniques, doesn’t mean that what you have done or have attempted to do with people is not a type of “deliverance counseling.” You may have decided to give it a different name, but you have very clearly described a type of deliverance counseling.
You said: “I never went inside the inside world with alters (that’d be full-on New Age Luciferian stuff). The alters just told me what they saw inside and I’d help them navigate.”
My response: Since I’ve read Ellis’s book that you say you learned from, I will remind you that you have forgotten a couple of other words that describe this process of “navigation” inside the system of a dissociative individual according to what Ellis wrote and described.
These words are “create” and “change.”
The book by Ellis very much describes a process whereby he would “help the person navigate their system,” and then often at his prompting, he would also help them “create and change” certain elements within their system, taking the individual through a process of visualization whereby he would give them (the alters) “commands.”
(And, I must point out, everything Ellis did was in a very “experimental” fashion.)
I’m sure you don’t have to re-read the book to know that what I’m saying is true.
That established, if you are “helping them navigate” within their system and are helping them “create and change elements” within their system to whatever degree, you have effectively described the process of “going inside” their system, and this is the basics of programming!
I know that you will likely disagree with me, and that doesn’t bother me one bit.
I also know that there are dissociative survivors who will disagree with me, too, and this doesn’t bother me, either.
And I also know that some counselors I’ve come across, some who are qualified (licensed) as legitimate mental health professionals, believe that “helping someone navigate their system” is okay, and that it is not equivalent to “being inside the system” with the individual themselves. And so, they may disagree with what I just said, too.
But this also doesn’t bother me, and I still stand by and defend what I have said, because my experiences have taught me that, regardless of what anyone else says or believes, what you are describing (and what Ellis described, practiced, and advocated… and according to you, tried to teach to others…) is going inside people’s systems and programming!
(And, by the way, trying to justify your programming by calling is “RE-programming” — as some have, such as my ex “deliverance counselor” — or even DE-programming, as some do, does not change the fact that it is programming! They are all describing elements of the programming process! People are not computers to be programmed, reprogrammed, and deprogrammed, regardless of how mind-control programmers — who are all satanically controlled!! — try to make us believe we are!)
Allow me to further explain, beginning with a question.
When a system is being programmed inside a person, who do you think helps them work through that process of creating, changing, and navigating that system?
If you thought, “a programmer,” you would be correct.
(I’m not fond of that word “programmer,” for reasons I’ve touched on above, but I’ll probably have to give a full explanation later… but “programmer” is the word that most people are familiar with, and for now, it’s as good as any other word, I suppose.)
Now, I think we can both agree that an individual’s system doesn’t have to have been created by a mind-control programmer in order to actually exist inside them. For instance, a person who is dissociative may have a system inside that, because of trauma of whatever sort, has been placed there through their own imagination, and not necessarily at the prompting (the “scripted command“) of an outside force (a “programmer“).
Regardless, here’s my other question to you: what is the difference between a programmer helping someone “create, change, and navigate” a system, and you helping someone “create, change, and navigate” their system?
Is it intent?
Perhaps, although that is debatable….
Is it the level of trauma experienced by the dissociative individual?
Perhaps, although that, too, is debatable….
(our book explains why I say these things are debatable, although don’t just take my word for it — if you read through Ellis’s book again, you’ll see very clear examples of trauma being experienced by the people he was “counseling”)
But regardless of intent and regardless of the level of trauma that is or is not felt by the dissociative individual, the results are still the same: it is programming.
“But it’s different with me!” you might be protesting. “I don’t program people!”
I assure you, it’s not different with you.
(Please reread my qualifications if you need to be reminded of why I’m able to tell you this with such conviction.)
If you truly understand just how programming takes place, and how systems are created, changed, and helped to navigate, then you would be a liar if you said that you helping a person navigate their system, create different elements inside their system, and change components of their system, is any different from a programmer helping someone to create their system and create the different elements of their system, navigate that system, and change components of their system.
You might say: “But I’m not a programmer, and neither was Ellis! He never used programming scripts, and neither do I!”
Well, you said that you learned from Ellis on how to “work with multiples,” so just to quickly prove my point, let’s take a very simple example from his book.
Do you recall the many instances where Ellis wrote in his book that he commanded to the dissociative people he was counseling: “Let there be light: and there was light”?
And do you recall reading in that same book where, purportedly, “light” suddenly appeared in the person’s system?
(See pages 24, 55, 61, 62, 89, 102, 131, 136, 145, 146, 152, 167, 175 of the PDF version of Ellis’s book, “The Shining Man with Hurt Hands.”)
This is an example of a very simple programming script, and is a very basic description of how a programming script (programming commands) works!
And for an even larger list of programming scripts Ellis would use (but he called this scripted list “commands” … LOL!!😂), see Appendix B, beginning on page 210!
Certainly, the argument could be made concerning intent.
And the argument could be made concerning the level of trauma.
But regardless of Ellis’s intent, and regardless of whether or not people he counseled were traumatized (some were, however), here’s the most important point I want to make: GOD DOESN’T PROGRAM PEOPLE.
Neither does He reprogram people.
And regardless of what some people think, He also does not deprogram people!
He HEALS people.
And God’s healing is not based upon the satanic principles of mind-control programming (or the related principles of deprogramming or reprogramming), but His healing is based upon the TRUTH that is found within His Word!
So then, why, as someone who is claiming to be a Christian, of sorts, who is claiming to follow Jesus Christ, of sorts …
(and by “of sorts,” I am speaking to an additional point in your email that, although I understand what you are saying, I will not address in this article; but you said you had been “born again,” therefore, you are claiming some type of Christianity)
… why are you using components of PROGRAMMING to help facilitate a healing process!?
You are no better than a mind-control programmer, and you can’t even claim to be different in the fact that you, unlike them, are doing it for good, because they think that, too! They just have a “broader” sense, so to speak, of what is “good” or what is “evil,” and this is a satanic philosophy that, even though I am more than qualified to talk about (see my personal blog), I won’t address in this article for the sake of space and time.
Side Note: Although I won’t belabor this point, I will quickly say that based upon the comments I’ve seen from you in different internet forums (I did a search of your email address, and several comments you’ve made on different forums came up), your ideas of “good versus evil” is actually exactly like that of many Luciferians as well as Satanists!
Yet you claim to be “born again”…?!
(and, btw, as another side note, Luciferians and Satanists all serve the same master, so in truth, there is no difference of philosophy between Satanists and Luciferians… there are just different levels of understanding)
Please think about what I’m saying and take it into serious consideration, because I know what I’m talking about!
At any rate, since this topic of “programming within deliverance counseling” has already been addressed at length in the book I wrote with Carolyn, I will leave you with some links to help educate yourself, if you so choose to take advantage of the offered resources:
1. Please read the entire “Spirit Man” section:
And don’t think for a SECOND that just because you aren’t doing the “spirit man” thing and because it “kinda creeps you out” (your own words that you will recognize from your email to us), that the material in these sections of our book doesn’t apply to you. Because if you are helping people navigate their system, as your mentor, Ellis, promoted, and helping to create and change elements inside a person’s system, then the words most CERTAINLY do apply to you!
2. Because you have gotten so far away from the Scriptural way of healing (and I say this not only based upon your email, but also based upon the other online material I came across that was written by you), please read these sections:
There are two sections: one for the non-dissociative person, and one for the dissociative person, but they both speak to the same Biblical principles.
3. Here are some additional thoughts on healing.
There are many Scriptures throughout our book for your study, and we encourage you to line up what we have written with the Word of God. As stated in the beginning of this article, if you find we are in error, please contact us and give Scripture for why you believe we are in error, and we will study the matter out for ourselves, amending, if necessary, not only our material, but also our own beliefs in order to be in line with the Word of God.
You said: “I had spirits try to impersonate me inside of some multiples’ systems. I told them not to trust that that was me when I wasn’t there working with them because I never asked my “spirit” to do anything like the t. I don’t even know if that’s possible. Ellis said multiples had seen him inside at times, too, while he was working with them.”
My response: This seemingly simply paragraph has a lot packed into it, and I hope I can clearly articulate my thoughts.
Under normal circumstances (and by “normal,” I mean: under circumstances where an individual is not being programmed to one degree or another), the fact that a dissociative individual “sees” another person inside their system isn’t necessarily indicative of a problem. And it does not necessarily mean that the “spirit” or the “essence” of that person is actually there, inside the system. It most likely just means that the other person is a “projection,” of sorts, of the dissociative mind.
(I’m not sure if “projection” is the correct word to use, but I want to make it clear that I am NOT speaking of the different forms of astral travel/projecting, including dream insertion. Neither am I speaking of the common defense mechanism known in psychology as “projection.” But I’m speaking to the phenomenon of a dissociative individual who, for whatever reason, creates an alter of, or a “mental depiction” of, a particular person they know, inside their system, for whatever reason, and interacts with them.)
For instance, an individual who has been through a lot of abusive at the hands of a particular individual (say, their mother, for instance… if you want to know why I chose that example, read my bio… lol), then sometimes there will be a “projection” of their mother inside their system.
People who aren’t dissociative might describe this as being “the voice of their mom, inside their head,” that influences them, for better or for worse.
But with those who are dissociative and who have alters, this “projected voice” can take a “physical form” (in a manner of speaking…), to the point where there may even be an alter on the inside who looks exactly like their mother and who has the same characteristics of their mother, for better or for worse.
From my understanding (based not only on my experiences, but also on material I’ve read about dissociation), this is pretty normal for individuals who have D.I.D. (Dissociative Identity Disorder).
This type of “projection” could also take place with other people who are not abusive, but who are influential to the dissociative person, even in a positive way. For example, a dissociative individual may create a “projection” inside their system of his or her counselor. This can be problematic for reasons that I don’t want to complicate this article with, but it’s not necessarily a bad thing, nor is it necessarily indicative that anything untoward is taking place within the counseling relationship.
For myself, I’ve created three different “counselors” on the inside that I speak to when I am feeling stressed and need to process through memories, but when I’m not yet at the place where I feel safe or comfortable processing those things out loud, such as with my husband, or with Carolyn.
Or… if I’m at a place where I’ve already processed the memories TOO much (in my opinion) with my husband and with Carolyn, and I don’t want to keep bothering them with blabbing on and on about the intrusive memories, I will “go inside” and talk to my “counselors” and continue processing the memories in that way.
I’m not sure if these three “counselors” are alters that I’ve created, or if they are just a mental depiction that I’ve created to help me when I’m stressed, but two of these “counselors” have a very specific appearance. The other one, however, is always changing the way she looks, because she has the tendency to look like the last therapist I had for about a month, and I wasn’t very impressed with her in real life, so I don’t like seeing her face show up in my system. And, in fact, I’ve pretty much phased her out as a “therapist” in my system, because she’s not a very impressive therapist, even in my own imagination… lol
Anyway… it feels kinda silly to admit all that, but there it is! lol 😂
But back to your email….
So what you are describing could be a benign alter (or a “mental rendering,” of sorts) that has been created by that individual who is taking on your persona.
However, in the circumstances you wrote to us about (within the programming of the type of “counseling” you were/are giving to others), this could absolutely be indicative of a serious problem, especially since you described these impersonators as “spirits.”
Therefore, based upon your description within the greater context of the “counseling” activities you describe in your email, it sounds more like it could be either an alter that is being demonically controlled, or it is a demon itself that has manifested inside the system of that individual, who may or may not take on the appearance of a human form (in your case, they would have taken on your likeness within the system of the individual).
On the other hand, it could also be a literal projection of a part of you inside the system of that person (what could be considered a type of astral travel/projection), but that’s a complicated topic. And since you strongly believe that this is not taking place, then I’ll just leave it at that.
Side Note: when I say “literal,” many people get confused. Some people believe that “literal” is strictly physical, and anything spiritual is not literal. But that’s not true. The spiritual is literal; it is just not physical.
These things are described in our book, and if you’ve read our book with understanding, let me remind you that programming (by whatever name it is being called) opens people up to demonic influence and control!
I know what I’m talking about! I’ve been through this, not only as a child during programming by a professional programmer, but also fairly recently (several years ago), through programming by a non-professional “deliverance counselor”!
So let me be clear: to us, what you have just described in your email is symptomatic of the greater problem that you have created within other people and within their systems through the programming techniques that you are employing when “counseling” them (by whatever name you describe this counseling).
So stop screwing around with other people’s systems!
You said: “I’d just show people how to find Jesus inside and how to test Him a few ways to know for sure it was Him.”
My response: I have personal experiences with this that I have touched on before, and I may go into more detail at a later date, because I think it will be helpful to people to hear my full testimony about this, but in order to keep this article as short as possible, I’ll just say: this absolutely is not Biblical. “Finding Jesus on the inside” is a demonic activity, and from a “Christian” standpoint, it is largely based upon the false doctrine of mankind that declares Jesus to “reside in the heart.”
Regardless of where it comes from, it is not of God, and it is keeping people tied to the demonic and tricked into following after a false Christ! And because they have been tricked, they focus on the experiences they have with this false Christ, or focus on the words of this false Christ, rather than on the Word of God and on their relationship with the FATHER!
This is a VERY dangerous deception that you have fallen for, and a VERY dangerous deception that you have led other people into believing!
Without excessively picking apart the subject (our book goes into much greater detail), let me quickly point out that even occultists (many of whom, like their “christian” counterparts, have become dissociative through unsafe spiritual practices, such as meditation or yoga…!!) seek after and find a spiritual being who they consider to be “Jesus” (or spiritual beings who they believe to be angels or other types of spiritual beings) on the inside, too… and this certainly isn’t of God, nor is it based on properly exegeted Scripture!
So, what makes you think that the so-called “Jesus” you “find on the inside” or help other people “find on the inside” is any different?
It’s not! It’s all of the occult!
Just as Jesus does not reside in or visit us within our hearts, He also does not reside in or visit people’s systems. There are no exceptions made concerning Biblical doctrine for those who are dissociative or for those who are working with dissociative people!
In other words, if you are dissociative, you don’t get a free pass to do what you want (to practice things that are occult), simply because you are dissociative!
And, if you are “working with multiples,” you don’t get a free pass to do what you want (to practice things that are occult), simply because you are working with a multiple!
The Word of God is the Word of God is the Word of God! Scripture is Scripture! It doesn’t change simply because you think your circumstances are “different” or “special”!
So while I won’t go over a lot here (because you can read our book… lol 🙂), here are some verses to consider (I bolded and italicized some words that I want to highlight):
John 14:16-17 “And I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Advocate to be with you forever— the Spirit of truth. The world cannot receive Him, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him. But you do know Him, for He abides with you and will be in you.”
John 16:7-11 “But I tell you the truth, it is for your benefit that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Advocate will not come to you; but if I go, I will send Him to you. And when He comes, He will convict the world in regard to sin and righteousness and judgment: in regard to sin, because they do not believe in Me; in regard to righteousness, because I am going to the Father and you will no longer see Me; and in regard to judgment, because the prince of this world has been condemned.”
John 20:17 “Do not cling to Me,” Jesus said, “for I have not yet ascended to the Father. But go and tell My brothers, ‘I am ascending to My Father and your Father, to My God and your God.'”
Matthew 24:4-5, 23-26 “Jesus answered, “See to it that no one deceives you. For many will come in My name, claiming, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will deceive many. … At that time, if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or ‘There He is,’ do not believe it. For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders that would deceive even the elect, if that were possible. See, I have told you in advance. So if they tell you, ‘There He is in the wilderness,’ do not go out; or, ‘Here He is in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it.”
John 19:30 “When Jesus had received the sour wine, He said, ‘It is finished.’ And bowing His head, He yielded up His spirit.”
Acts 2:32-33 “God has raised this Jesus to life, to which we are all witnesses. Exalted, then, to the right hand of God, He has received from the Father the promised Holy Spirit and has poured out what you now see and hear.”
Hebrews 1:3 “The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of His nature, upholding all things by His powerful word. After He had provided purification for sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high.”
Mark 16:19 “After the Lord Jesus had spoken to them, He was taken up into heaven and sat down at the right hand of God.”
… and many others! (and if you don’t like the BSB translation that I’ve used, feel free to look over these verses in the King James translation.)
So what do I mean by giving you all these Scriptures? Here’s a very simple breakdown:
1. The work of Jesus Christ is FINISHED, and He is now seated at the right hand of the Father.
2. Because of this, the Holy Spirit is now at work.
3. Therefore, any “Christs” that you or others may see is not the True Jesus Christ, but is an impostor!
4. Additionally, if you read the whole of Scripture within context and the words of Jesus Christ, Jesus Christ came so that our relationship with the FATHER can be restored!
So stop trying to “find Jesus!” He’s in Heaven now, and you are on earth, so why are you trying to find out where He is? As a Christian, you should KNOW where He is!
And stop talking to Jesus, but do as He commanded us, and start praying to the Father!
So to be clear: any and all “seeking Jesus out to work with him in the dissociative system to find healing” is not a true work of the Spirit of God, but is a work of the antichrist spirit.
Does this mean that people who do such “work with a Jesus” don’t feel good or don’t actually feel better?
No! Some people claim that they do feel better, and who am I to argue with what they say about how they feel?
Besides, I believe them! I believe that if they say they feel better, then they do feel better.
But not all do.
I did at first, but it didn’t last long… I’ve already talked some about it, and I’ll likely talk more about it in the future, but the “feel-good feelings” certainly didn’t last long!
And we have received emails from some who didn’t have those “feel-good feelings,” either, but instead experienced similar to what I experienced: breakdowns, a worsening of dissociative symptoms (“going inside” very literally requires a form of dissociation… even if it is to interact with what one assumes is “Jesus”), negative repercussions from the demonic, suicidal thoughts, etc….
But some do feel good.
And who knows…? Maybe their “feel-good-feelings” last for a very long time!
But their feel-good feelings don’t matter if what they are doing is wrong! What feels good is not what always is good. What feels good, isn’t always what is spiritually safe and Biblically acceptable!
If you want a clear Scriptural study on what “healing” is according to Scripture, we also clearly laid this out in our book, particularly in these sections:
And since some people were unable to translate the basic Biblical principles we wrote about into a practical application for their healing and every day life, Carolyn and I went into greater detail in a series of videos that you can view here:
The subject of healing according to Scripture is also addressed throughout many of our articles, so read. 🙂
So, even though the truth about “working with Jesus” completely debunks Ellis’s work as described in “The Shining Man with Hurt Hands,” I’ll continue with the rest of my responses to your email.
You said: “My goodness, we came across sooooo many false Jesuses. Tons.”
My response: Yes, I’m sure you did. Considering that what you were doing is not based on sound Biblical doctrine, it’s not surprising….
Furthermore, did you ever ONCE stop to consider how emotionally and mentally and spiritually devastating it is for the survivor to continually come across fake Jesus after fake Jesus? (and I speak from personal experience)
Here’s a thought: why don’t you just stop leading them to false Christs and start leading them to the Father?! Bypass all the junk, and go straight to The Solution!
You said: “1 John 4:2 says a spirit that’s not from God cannot say Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. Has to be “is” come in the flesh, not “has” come in the flesh. The KJV got it right with “is” come in the flesh and evil spirits cannot say it. Works really well as one of the tests.”
My response: You are misunderstanding what this Scripture means, grossly misapplying it (by this, I mean that you are attempting to apply this verse within a situation where you are outside of Scripture and entertaining false spirits to begin with…!), and as a result, you (and others) are being led astray by evil spirits who are tricking you, using words that are EASILY manipulated and spoken…. because you have a lack of understanding and have involved yourself in things which are not Scriptural at all.
Rather than explain everything here, please read “Testing the Spirits” (it’s a pretty short read):
You said: “I learned from Ellis Skolfield who wrote The Shining Man with Hurt Hands, which is about his experience helping multiples.”
My response: I’ve already talked about Ellis’s book, but I’ll quickly restate what I’ve already written.
1. Not only is much of what Ellis proposed in his book concerning “healing from dissociation” dangerous (if you don’t believe me, re-read his book …. he mentions a few instances where the people he “counseled” were brought to harm, some seriously), but I did not find in my research where he was actually qualified to counsel anyone at all, except for maybe “pastoral counseling.”
But even in that case, since he wasn’t counseling according to the standards that are found in the Word of God, then he wasn’t even doing that right!
2. And as I’ve already touched on, there are fundamental elements of Ellis’s “counseling” that are identical to mind-control programming, regardless of intent, and regardless of how much trauma the individual felt they were under. (And let me repeat: there were some who were traumatized…)
3. Lastly (and in my mind, most importantly), many of the principles Ellis used in his “counseling” were unbiblical, and this is most obvious in him helping people “find Jesus” in their system, although this isn’t the whole of his unbiblical principles by far!
You said: “Don’t worry, his “shining man” title was chosen strictly because the alters would see Jesus inside and say He shines and has wounds in His hands.”
My response: Have you ever heard of this saying: “If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck… then it’s a duck”?
I, too, came across this “shining man,” both as a child and as an adult while going through so-called “counseling” with Dan Duval. And it was a LIE and a TRICK of Satan.
Are these “shining men” who are taking on the persona of Jesus or of angels actually the “Shining Ones” that Carolyn and I have written and talked about?
Maybe, maybe not.
But they come from the same demonic spirit!!
If you don’t believe me, then go reread point six again.
You said: “I sometimes found that there was an alter in the system who was actually an angel. Ellis found that at times, but when the multiple would fully integrate, the alter would find out he or she was an angel and would go with God because he wasn’t needed anymore.”
My response: I, too, had an alter that, because of the unbiblical counseling process with Dan Duval, came to believe herself to be an angel. In my case, I believe it was programming that had been triggered through the programming of the type of “counseling” I was going through with Duval, but regardless, it wasn’t the truth. Coming to that realization was very devastating to the entire system, to that part of me, and to myself, as well.
(And by “very devastating,” I mean nervous breakdown, severe depression, and suicidal.)
Furthermore, while going through the aforementioned “counseling,” I also had many spiritual beings inside my system who claimed to be angels. But guess what? They weren’t!! They were demons.
But personal experiences aside, here are two more points I have to make:
First, alters are parts of a person; not parts of angels. Therefore, it is impossible for an alter to be an angel. Some alters may have been programmed to believe themselves to be angels, and some alters just may believe themselves to be an angel for whatever reason. But the truth is, alters are parts of human beings; not parts of angelic beings.
Second, even if there is a being in the system that everyone thought was an alter, but it came out later that it was supposedly an “angel,” I ask this: where is Scripture for that? That is absolutely unscriptural! There is no Scriptural evidence that points to angels residing inside a person’s system, whether they are masquerading as alters or not.
But do you know what there is Scriptural evidence of? Demons dwelling inside the person.
And you know what else there is Scriptural proof of? Sometimes demons masquerade as angels.
So, if there truly is a spiritual being dwelling inside the spiritual space of individual (or, for those who are dissociative, inside their system… which is inside the person themselves), then regardless of what it appears to be, it is a demonic spirit, not an angelic spirit.
However, since I am always up for correction, if you can show me Scripture that proves otherwise, I will amend this article (and my personal beliefs) to reflect the truth of the Word of God.
You said: “I learned a lot from my days working with multiples.”
My response: You’d do better to learn from the Word of God.
You said: “… using the method I used, when a multiple would fully integrate, all of their health issues would go away. We’re talking terminal diseases, incurable diseases, weight issues, etc. They’d all just vanish. If they were grossly overweight, they’d drop weight in record time until they reached their optimum average healthy weight.”
My response: Well, move over, Benny Hinn!
I’m just joking with you…. lol 😁
Seriously, though, it’s no wonder that you’d rather work at adjusting your own methods than find healing according to Biblical standards. It sounds like you’ve found a veritable fountain of youth! And the only drawback is that one has to have survived through horrifying, obscene, ongoing, mind-splitting trauma as a child….
At any rate, I can understand now why you were so disappointed when your own method didn’t work for you.
Just one question, though: do you actually have verifiable proof of your claims, or should we just take your word for it?
Not that any “proof” really matters to me one way or the other… because, you see, I’d still rather go at healing GOD’S way, and not your way.
First, because if I start chasing after healing and making that my focus, then I lose sight of what is most important: a relationship with my Heavenly Father. And He will heal me in His own time, and in accordance with His will in my life.
Second, chasing after healing is likely to get me exactly what I desire, as I’ll explain in a moment… but at what cost?
You see, Satan and the demonic are very much capable of providing healing such as what you describe, and I know this. So, even if you DO have proof of these miraculous, death-defying healings in people’s lives, it wouldn’t surprise me! Satan is MORE than capable of providing such miracles.
In fact (and I never shared this publicly when I had the chance in my last post on my personal blog, but I’ll go ahead and share it now, since it seems appropriate), among many other things the demonic have been trying to entice me with (or threaten me with…) over the past several months, they recently “promised” to send me an individual such as yourself who could give me healing such as what you have described…. if I only stop doing what I’m currently doing — exposing their deceptions — and go back to work with them.
Ironically enough, you emailed us a few days later.
But let’s just chalk that up to coincidence, shall we?
Regardless, I won’t stop doing the will of my Father!
⇒ See John 6:38: “For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but to do the will of Him who sent Me.”
Because I love my Heavenly Father. And my eternal salvation and being in submission to the will of my Heavenly Father is more important than my own desires and my own needs. And in the end, my Father offers an eternal reward that lasts forever; but Satan’s “promises” of rewards are only temporary.
I leave you with a few passages of Scripture to contemplate (this is a BSB translation, but since you’ve expressed a fondness for KJV, feel free to study these passages using that translation):
For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders that would deceive even the elect, if that were possible. See, I have told you in advance.
2 Thessalonians 2:9-12
The coming of the lawless one will be accompanied by the working of Satan, with every kind of power, sign, and false wonder, and with every wicked deception directed against those who are perishing, because they refused the love of the truth that would have saved them. For this reason, God will send them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie, in order that judgment will come upon all who have disbelieved the truth and delighted in wickedness.
Prior to that time, a man named Simon had practiced sorcery in the city and astounded the people of Samaria. He claimed to be someone great, and all the people, from the least to the greatest, heeded his words and said, “This man is the divine power called the Great Power.” They paid close attention to him because he had astounded them for a long time with his sorcery.
They traveled through the whole island as far as Paphos, where they found a Jewish sorcerer and false prophet named Bar-Jesus, an attendant of the proconsul, Sergius Paulus. The proconsul, a man of intelligence, summoned Barnabas and Saul because he wanted to hear the word of God. But Elymas the sorcerer (for that is what his name means) opposed them and tried to turn the proconsul from the faith.
Then Saul, who was also called Paul, filled with the Holy Spirit, looked directly at Elymas and said, “O child of the devil and enemy of all righteousness! You are full of all kinds of deceit and trickery. Will you never stop perverting the straight ways of the Lord? Now look, the hand of the Lord is against you, and for a time you will be blind and unable to see the light of the sun.” Immediately mist and darkness came over him, and he groped about, seeking someone to lead him by the hand.
If a prophet or dreamer of dreams arises among you and proclaims a sign or wonder to you, and if the sign or wonder he has spoken to you comes about, but he says, “Let us follow other gods (which you have not known) and let us worship them,” you must not listen to the words of that prophet or dreamer. For the LORD your God is testing you to find out whether you love Him with all your heart and with all your soul. You are to follow the LORD your God and fear Him. Keep His commandments and listen to His voice; serve Him and hold Him fast.
You said: “I was so upset that I could help multiples heal but couldn’t use the same method to help myself since I couldn’t see my inside world.”
My response: Here’s an interesting fact about the Word of God: it always works for everyone, no matter if you are dissociative or not; no matter if you can “see your inside world” or not.
I know it might seem pale in comparison to what sounds like the “fountain of youth” you’ve described as helping others find, but why don’t you stop trying your way (or, the way as described by Ellis), and start living God’s way?
Carolyn and I have written in our book, written in various blog articles on this website, and spoken at length in recorded videos about God’s way of healing according to Biblical principles, and I already gave you the links, but here’s the link again to the video series:
You said: “I eventually developed a method anyone can use to heal their physical issues through dealing with the subconscious’s repressed emotions and beliefs. But it’s not easy. Gotta have good, sound beliefs and you need to know psychology to a degree so you can pick out the psychological patterns and address them with your subconscious. Thankfully, though, really good hypnotherapist know how to unlock the subconscious and make changes to fix health and emotional problems. Unfortunately, they usually don’t deal in beliefs so they can’t get too terribly deep. But it’s still encouraging that they know a method similar to mine that really helps people heal.”
Maybe I’ve misunderstood your words (and if I have, please forgive me, and ignore this comment), but according to you, your method doesn’t work for you, so this seems to be an untrue statement.
“Good sound beliefs”?
Good sound beliefs in what? In whom? What have you described in your email that you believe constitutes “good sound beliefs”? Based on who’s standards? Yours? Or the standards of God as found in His Word?
“You need to know psychology to a degree”?
I’m not necessarily opposed to certain aspects of psychology that do not contradict Biblical principles that are found in the Word of God…. but how about knowing the Word of God and understanding and living the principles spoken of in His Word?
“Unlock the subconscious”?
Where’s Scripture for this? Why are you complicating healing? Why don’t you try studying and understanding and applying the principles of God’s Word to your life, and then watch as the Spirit of God works healing inside of you!
“It’s still encouraging that they know a method similar to mine that really helps people heal”?
What about the healing found through the finished work of Jesus Christ? What about TRUE healing that is found as you submit to the will of the Father and walk in obedience to His Word? What about TRUE healing that is found when the Spirit of God works within you?
It sounds like you believe that your way — your method — is better than God’s way.
So why then, I wonder, do you speak as if you are a Christian… yet you also speak as if your way is better than God’s way?
And taking the whole of your email, here is my final conclusion on your “methods of healing:
Since you stated at the very beginning that “repressed emotions are the whole driving factor behind why we sin”; and since you then go on to state that dealing with these repressed emotions (specifically by using your methods) brings healing to both body and emotions; then it is VERY apparent to me that you are actually attempting to obtain a type of salvation (freedom from those sins and from the consequences of those sins) through your own complicated “method of healing”!
Where is God’s solution in all of this? You’ve thrown out the finished work of Jesus Christ and attempted to replace it with your own!
You may not see it this way. But I am just sharing my conclusion to what you have described throughout your email. So even if you disagree with my assessment, please just consider the words I’ve written. That’s all I ask: just consider it. 🙂
You said: “Being in the Illuminati, I wonder if they told you about the Catholics literally creatint Islam.”
My response: Since you made it VERY clear in your email that you weren’t addressing me, but only Carolyn, I’m going to assume that you believe that Carolyn used to be in the Illuminati.
Please follow this link to understand why Carolyn is NOT former Illuminati:
And, by the way, I’m not former Illuminati either. The above link explains it, if you are interested.
You said: “I’d contact Bride Ministries. They responded by trying to get me to buy one of their lesson plans to learn how Daniel works with multiples. I told them I was hoping to speak with Daniel to discuss Ellis’s method and [name redacted]…. They responded by saying they were aware of [name redacted] but not Ellis’s.”
My response: Perhaps the person from Bride Ministries that you corresponded with wasn’t aware of Ellis or his book.
But Dan Duval most certainly was.
Maybe he’s forgotten about it by now, but when I was working with Duval as his client, he certainly knew about Ellis and his book.
Not only did we have multiple conversations in our sessions about the book and the content of the book, but there were also aspects of Ellis’s book that Duval used. For instance, “Let there be light.” And “finding Jesus in the system.”
(To be fair, however, “finding Jesus in the system” isn’t an idea that is unique to Ellis, but is an idea that has been around for a while within Theophostic-style “deliverance” counseling, and is an idea that Preston Bailey, Duval’s professed mentor, promoted and pushed, although I believe Preston calls it “asking Jesus into the memory.” But in practice, it works the same way as “finding Jesus in the system.”)
The principles that Ellis operated by and that he wrote about in his book were also used as a validation as to what was going on during my sessions with Duval, as well as what was happening inside my system. It wasn’t the only validation that was considered, no, but it was one of the sources that offered validation, particularly in the beginning of my sessions with Duval.
Furthermore, over a period of time while I was involved with the original “Bride DID support group,” Ellis’s book itself was heavily promoted and discussed throughout the members of the group, both in private conversations as well as in group conversations. And after reading it, I eventually became one such public advocate of the book (much to my shame), in spite of several misgivings that I had about some of the content.
(Misgivings that I talked about with Duval, by the way, during one of my sessions with him, because there were several aspects of the book that greatly distressed me.)
Eventually, everyone’s interest veered more towards “Arthur Burk” and his “spirit man” theology, especially once Rob Ruckert, who heavily promoted that particular satanic doctrine, came fully on board as a “DID coach,” and Ellis’s book took a back seat.
Anyway, I’m not sure why you were told by whoever that Bride Ministries has no knowledge of Ellis and of his “ministry.” Because many of them certainly do, including Duval.
On the other hand, it’s quite possible (and probably likely) that the person you corresponded with simply wasn’t aware of Duval’s knowledge of Ellis’s book, nor of the previous circulation and promotion of Ellis’s book within the BM group.
At any rate… now you know. 🙂
In closing, I urge you to please go back to the Word of God, and base the truth of your life and your healing upon His Word; not upon your own ideas or philosophies, or the ideas and philosophies of mankind. But upon the properly exegeted Word of God!
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