Q&A: Gateways


This is mostly a comment, but it’s an important one. And it’s good to know that through the book that Carolyn and I wrote, people are starting to make connections for themselves about the occult doctrines that have begun to infiltrate into mainstream Christianity. 🙂

I’m nearly done with your book, and I appreciate all the time and effort. Wow. A huge accomplishment. As I was reading, I remembered Ian Clayton on [YouTube], and he was teaching a great deal of what is in the book. He had many of the buzzwords of engagement, gates, and even talked about [making] the spirit man come out of the body and be over the body. Huh? Totally bizarre. Have you heard of him?

I already personally responded to this individual, but I decided to address this here (adding a lot more info than I gave in the email response, because that’s just how I roll… 😀 ), because it’s important that people are warned away from these false doctrines.


Yes, we’ve heard of Ian Clayton. I don’t remember ever hearing of him, though, until Carolyn and I were doing research for the book we were writing. If his name was mentioned to me at the time I was connected with the people at Bride Ministry, I don’t remember.

We first began writing our book with the intention of giving detailed explanation about the occult doctrines that Dan Duval was teaching and implementing in his “deliverance ministry” counseling/coaching sessions with clients. We were doing this to answer the questions and accusations that Carolyn (and by default, but to a lesser degree, myself) had received from many people: “Why did you leave Bride Ministries? Tell us more! All you’re doing is accusing Duval of teaching Luciferian doctrine, but not explaining what you mean. We want to know more! Explain!”

So although the things we wrote about in our book were initially about the doctrines of demons that Dan Duval is teaching, we quickly realized that we needed to make the book not just about a single individual, or about a single so-called “ministry.” The doctrines we have written about are demonic, Luciferian doctrines that have taken over much of Christianity, quickly infiltrating into what is considered to be “mainstream.” So this is the main reason why we didn’t specifically “name names” in our book. It’s not that we don’t believe naming names is important (it is, in fact, the responsibility of Christians to point out and name false doctrine and false teachers), but there are just so many of them! So we decided to just focus on the actual Luciferian doctrines that is being believed and taught, rather than the people who are believing and teaching those things.

At any rate, it doesn’t surprise me that much of what you read in our book reminds you so strongly of Clayton. He’s one of the ones who believes and teaches the same demonic garbage as Duval. And, of course, his false doctrine dovetails perfectly with the “seat of dominion” garbage and the “spirit man” garbage that we wrote about in our book. They and many others are all interconnected, like a bunch of gnats, dotted on a sticky spiderweb of lies and false doctrine.

But while Clayton wasn’t necessarily foremost in our mind when we were writing the book, the entire section on “Gateways” (beginning on page 194) comes directly from his teachings that we are exposing as being occult. We didn’t give his name, but we cited our sources in that chapter, including leaving a link directly to Clayton’s website where you can buy his book on “Gateways,” if you are so inclined to toss your money away in such a fashion.

There’s also another link we found, however, that has the entire PDF version online to read for free. I have no idea who put it out there, but it’s available to look at for free.

Clayton’s teaching on these supposed “gateways” is but one demonic teaching that is literally teaching people how to open themselves up to the demonic and to demonic influence. It is incredibly deceptive, particularly to those Christians who are esoterically-minded, driven by unbiblical motivations, and who are not lining everything up with the Word of God that has been properly interpreted within context.

If you’ve already read our chapter on “Gateways,” then you don’t need this refresher, but for those who haven’t read it, here is what we wrote about this dangerous, unbiblical doctrine in the section titled “Gateways.”

(It’s relatively short… comparatively speaking, of course. 😀 )



The following are the basics behind the “gateways” theology:

1. They say there are three basic gateways: gateways of the body, gateways of the soul, and gateways of the spirit.

2. The gateways of the body are said to lead into the gateways of the soul, and they claim the gateways of the soul lead to the gateways of the spirit.

3. The gateways of the spirit are said to lead to the center of the human spirit, where the “Gateway of First Love” is, opening up to the “Glory of God” that is reflected inside each of us.

4. There are also gateways that are talked about as being “ways of learning” (musical, mathematical, interpersonal, visual, et cetera).

5. People are taught to separate their spirit from their soul in preparation for opening the gateways.

6. People are taught to submit each gateway to their own human spirit.

7. People are taught to keep their gateways “clean and clear” so the supposed “glory of God can flow through the gateways.”

What’s Really Going On

There is a lot of Christian language being used in this occult teaching on gateways. However, there’s also a lot of Christian language used in the Luciferian/Satanic writings of occultists such as Helena Blavatsky, Edgar Cayce, or Alice A. Bailey. So “language” can be distorted to cause the reader to come to a conclusion that is not true. We briefly discussed this “language distortion” under “Doublespeak and Doublethink.”

But here is the truth behind what is really going on with these gateways:

1. The entire concept of “gateways” is based on fractal spirituality, also known as quantum spirituality. Aside from the nesting effect these gateways have, this fractal spirituality is most apparent in the fact that they say the “glory of God is reflected inside each of us.” Since we’ve previously explained fractal spirituality and discussed the dangers, we will not go over it again. However, we will remind you that “Emanationism” describes the basic ideas behind fractal or quantum spirituality, and is something that Scripture clearly warns against.

2. “Gateways” ties into the “spirit man” theology, especially because this doctrine is teaching people that they need to separate their spirit from their soul in order for the supposed “glory of God to flow through the gateways of the spirit to change the soul.”

First, separating the spirit from the soul is not Biblical at all. This entire concept was thoroughly discussed in the Spirit Man chapter, so we won’t repeat what has already been said.

Second, this entire concept is not Biblical. The Holy Spirit works in us and through us to change us; it is not the work of our own assumed “human spirit.” (Related reading: “Submission to Authority and the Heart“)

3. Gateways are used in the context of the spirit/soul gateways being tied into the five senses of our physical body (the body gateways). These gateways are used as one way to teach people how to “see in the spirit” and how to hear the voices of other spirits (presumably their own “human spirit”).

As talked about in point six of the Spirit Man chapter, the “human spirit” they are speaking of is either a demonically-controlled part of them, or a demon itself. So in truth, the teachings on gateways are one avenue through which occult gifts can be developed and mastered, and also are one avenue through which they learn to listen to the voice of the demonic. These “gateways” are open doors through which the demonic can enter into the individual and work through them to influence the world at large.

4. This teachings speaks of “cleaning or opening” the gateways. It’s couched in “Christian terms” and urges people to keep their gateways open through: forgiving others, being sensitive to the “Holy Spirit,” and speaking in tongues. And while these things may be fine and good, this is not sound Biblical teaching.

pg_195_GatewaysFirst, the entire premise is off: these teachings on “gateways” are not Biblical at all. As mentioned all throughout this book, this “human spirit” they are speaking of in this teaching is either a demonically-controlled part of them, or a demon itself. Ironically enough, this demon, or demonically-controlled part, is doing exactly what the teaching says it will, just not in the way they think: they are keeping the gateways open and clear so the individual continues to be open to the demonic.

Furthermore, keeping the gateways “clean and open” is exactly what occultists teach about the spiritual centers or chakras. The true reason for this is so the demonic has free and open access to the spiritual space inside the person. So these activities within these “gateways” teaching are literally opening people up to demonic possession and influence as they open the gateways to the demonic.

Additionally, while forgiving others is a good thing to do, allowing the Holy Spirit to work in our lives is accomplished by submitting to God, repenting of our own sin, asking forgiveness for our own sin, and walking in obedience to His Word. Certainly not through our human “feelings of sensitivity,” nor through a gift of tongues. Furthermore, anyone — saved or not saved — can forgive. This is not necessarily an indication of the Holy Spirit working in someone’s life, although it can be one indication. Repentance of one’s own sin (turning away from the sin), however, is a true indication that the Spirit of God is working in that individual’s life, as well as evidence of the true fruit of the Spirit that comes about as a result of the work of the Holy Spirit.

5. Along with the exercises of opening and cleaning the doorways, these teachings are also using visualization. This is a well-known and well-used precursor to teaching astral travel/projection and remote viewing, occult activities that are performed through demonic assistance and control. How? Because by opening up their mind through visualization, the individual is opening the “gateways” to their heart — the spiritual space inside them — and the demonic is flooding in. And because the individual has opened up their heart and their mind to the demons, they are able to further manipulate the individual’s mind to have visions of things that are not truth, or take them to places that are not truth, such as so-called “heavenly places.” The visions they see or the places they visit in the supernatural may be real, but they are not truth from God.

Bottom line, our Heavenly Father doesn’t need us to “visualize” anything in order for Him to do His work inside us; all He requires of us is that we submit to Him, repent, and walk in obedience. That’s it. No visualization needed.

6. The “tree of life” referenced in these teachings is a Biblical reference that is being used in an occult way. These charismatics are using “gateways” as a way to access and eat from this “tree of life.” (This also ties into having a spiritual awakening — an enlightenment — and developing, or manifesting, their so-called “spirit.”) For some, this may be a figurative “eating.” However, through the “Spirit Man” and “Shining Ones” teachings, some are entering into real spiritual realms, through astral travel or projection, and eating fruit from a “tree of life.”

Either way, whether literal or figurative, this is not of God. No matter how they try to say that we, as humans, can have access in this life to the Tree of Life that is spoken of in the Bible, there simply is no Scriptural support for this. God has forbidden human access to His Tree of Life for our own protection, and it will not be available to us until we are in our eternal home. There is no indication in Scripture that He has changed His mind about this.

On the other hand, since there is no Scriptural evidence we are aware of that God made it impossible for mankind to partake of the “tree of the knowledge of good and evil” after the fall, it seems more likely, given all the facts of the occult teachings within the “Spirit Man” and “gateways” doctrines, that they are being deceived and eating from the “tree of the knowledge of good and evil.” Not the “tree of life.”

But whether this is a figurative eating or a literal eating, and whether this “tree” is actually the “tree of the knowledge of good and evil” or not, it would be beneficial for them to go back and reread — with proper, Godly understanding — the account in Genesis 3, as after the fall mankind was forbidden by God to eat from the Tree of Life. Regardless of how they try to twist the meaning of Scripture, this practice of “eating from the tree of life” is not Biblical. They are not going into Heaven and eating from the Tree of Life that is there. They are being taken into a demonic realm (demonic realms can be deceptive and look very beautiful) and are partaking from a tree that has demonic fruit. Any tree that is of Satan is a tree of his nature, and of his kingdom; therefore, this is demonic fruit.

This is symbolic of them gaining their “spiritual nourishment” from Satan rather than the Word of God. Unfortunately for them, “Satanic fruit” is all calories and no nutrition, and even though they will get hyped up on all those calories, they will slowly starve themselves to death, spiritually speaking, even while they continue to gorge and make themselves fat on the demonic fruit.

7. We have one final point about the occult “tree of life” (not the true Tree of Life that is in Heaven).

The “tree of life” has been an occult reference for many centuries, and is known as: tree of knowledge, sacred tree, eternal tree, tree of immortality, world tree, et al. Furthermore, within mind-control, there is a “tree of life” programming that many individuals have programmed with. So the possibility exists that for some, this “tree of life” is nothing more than a fractal programming script that is running; although there certainly is danger in this, as well, as demons and programming are closely related.

(end excerpt)

Personal Testimony

In reference to this supposed “tree of life” that is talked about in Clayton’s teachings, I have a personal anecdote, and hopefully by sharing, people will start to see how harmful this teaching actually is.

☛ Note: Please keep in mind — when this event occurred, I had never heard of Clayton before, nor had I ever come across his teachings at that point. So later, when Carolyn and I were writing our book and I came across this demonic teaching of his, I just about fell out of my chair!

Through the programming process of going through so-called “deliverance counseling” with Dan Duval, and at his initiation and with his encouragement, I was opened up to demonic spirits that I, mainly through my own failure to line everything up with the Word of God, was deceived into thinking were angelic beings. Two of them in particular were taking me to so-called “heavenly places,” and Duval would use me basically as a medium, plying these spiritual beings with questions about what they had shown me, what they had said, and what they meant by what they had said. He’d ask the questions, and I would then share with him the response I received. I’ve already written some about this, but I want to add a bit more, and discuss the nature of some of these encounters I was having.

During my personal meditation time (at that time I called it “prayer,” however), one particular place they brought me during my meditation time was to an area that looked very beautiful. I noticed one odd thing, though: even though it was broad daylight, the atmosphere seemed darkened, as if the light couldn’t quite penetrate.

But other than the light being not-so-light, the place was beautiful. We entered into this place from a cave-like area that was set against a tall rocky cliff. Vines with tiny white flowers clung to the rock wall, cascading down the cave entrance, and draping across an expanse of trees spread in front of us. Dew on the rambling tendrils trembled and shimmered dully with the colors of the rainbow that were trapped inside each droplet. I pushed aside the vines and moved between the trees, this “angel” and “Jesus” beside me. We emerged on the far side of a huge meadow, a thick carpet of grass and flowers spread out as far as the eyes could see. In front of me a little ways was a large tree, thick with golden ripe fruit that swayed in the breeze, and further on, a sparkling river wound its way from a shining city that twinkled far off in the distance.

The three of us reclined in the shade of the tree while they explained to me where we were and what it all meant. These are the lies that I was told by these demonic beings:

1. We were in a place that was considered to be my “personal realm” in the supernatural.

2. This realm would be where I would rule and reign for eternity.

3. The city in the distance was where the people who lived in my realm would reside.

4. The people who would live there were the “lesser” Christians who did not fully manifest their spirits in their own lifetime (the word “lesser” was not used, but that’s what was meant). They were still saved, they just did not inherit their kingdom.

5. Other people like me had their own personal realms, too, and the river that came out of the city was the “River of Life” that flowed from the “City of God,” winding its way into and through each and every realm that came from this “City of God,” connecting them all together. (Does this sound like “fractal spirituality” to anyone yet…? 😉 )

6. The tree that was before me was a “Tree of Life.”

7. This tree was reflected in every realm that was connected to the “City of God,” but even though it was a “reflection,” it was still the real “Tree of Life.” (In case it isn’t clear yet, this is another example of “fractal spirituality”)

I can’t recall if this occurred the first time I visited there, or if it happened during a subsequent visit, but at one point during a visit (I think it was that first visit, but I could be wrong), I was reclining under this large tree, listening to them talk, and this false “Jesus” reached up and pulled a piece of fruit from the branches, handing it to me. I ate this fruit.

Now, I’m not normally one to have a huge ego. Flattery will get you no where with me. I’m not saying that kindness gets you no where with me. I appreciate kindness. 🙂 But flattery? Nah… But…!! This teaching certainly did puff up my ego! Which is part of the whole point, because things that make us “feel good” are things that we don’t give up so easily, and things that we will sell our soul to defend as being right and true, even when they are not.

During the next counseling session, when I told Duval that this “Jesus” had taken me to a heavenly place, he thought it was awesome, and he asked me to tell him all about it. So I shared with him what had happened.

☛ Note: Having this spiritual encounter (and others like it) was but one reason why he kept insisting that I was “getting better” through his style of counseling, when I clearly was not. More on this in a moment.

So when I told him about this experience and what had happened, he mentioned to me that he had heard about other people going to “heavenly places” and eating from a “tree of life,” but he didn’t mention Ian Clayton. And if he did, I don’t remember. Then he asked me to share more about the “realms” that this “angel and Jesus” had told me about. So I told him about it. I’m not sure if it was specifically during that conversation or not, but in subsequent conversations, he would ask this “angel” and this “Jesus” for clarification on certain things about “realms,” and I was acting as a medium, telling Duval what they were saying in response to his questions.

☛ Note: some have accused Carolyn and I of having “infected Dan Duval with occult doctrine.” What I have shared with you is a very good example of how this so-called “infecting” took place. This wasn’t me “infecting” him. This was me, describing to my “deliverance minister,” an experience I had had. And he, as my “deliverance minister,” was digging for more and more information, asking the demonic beings, that I thought were Godly beings at the time (demonic beings that had been ushered in through the programming of this “deliverance counseling”), to give him — through me acting as a medium — more information about specific things. Him asking me about these experiences was not for my benefit, but for his. He was collecting occult information, pulling it from the occult experiences I was having. But at that time, I didn’t recognize them as occult experiences nor as occult information. I didn’t realize that until a few months after I quit his counseling, and the Father started to slowly open my eyes to the truth of what I had been involved in.

Furthermore, this may be a bit off topic, but while I’m on this subject, it’s something I feel is important to bring out at this time. Later in the course of “counseling,” right before I finally quit, Duval brought me through an exercise whereby he “surrounded my system with his personal realm,” and the so-called “angels” whisked the main house that was inside my system, away from where it had always been, and took it to this “heavenly realm” that I’ve described to you. What I realize now is that this was creating a stronger spiritual connection between myself, my parts, and this demonic realm, whereby I, even on a subconscious level, could be more easily influenced by the demonic, who I had been deceived into thinking were angels of God and even Jesus himself!

For those who don’t understand about dissociation, what I just described probably makes no sense to you. But the point I want to make here, is that this is yet another example of the type of programming, aided by the demonic, that was going on in this “deliverance counseling” with Duval, creating yet another demonic connection whereby I was under their influence. And for those who are dissociative, let me tell you: no one — NO ONE — should mess around with your system. To do so is the very essence of programming. No, it’s not the same type of trauma-based mind-control programming that I went through as a child. But it was traumatic in and of itself, in a very real, spiritual way, which leads to my next point…

I have already brought out this point in another post, but I’ll repeat many of the same words, because what I wrote about the “schoolrooms” that were programmed into my system during this “deliverance counseling” applies in this situation as well:

If this “Tree of Life” was something that was of God to bring me healing and deliverance; and if this “realm” was such a holy, godly place that was connected to the “City of God” and had the “River of Life” running through it; and if these “teachings” I was receiving in the astral really were from an angel and from Jesus; then you’d think that these things would start to have a positive effect on me. You’d think I would eventually start to feel better. You’d think my emotions would begin stabilizing. And you’d think that I would start to be able to understand Biblical concepts and would be able to start studying the Bible on my own without getting triggered. But those things didn’t happen.

There were a few highs, yes, especially when I was right in the middle of these visitations to these supposed “heavenly places.” But outside of those few highs, what happened was that I became increasingly agitated, increasingly depressed, and my mental state deteriorated to the point where I became very suicidal and I nearly lost my mind. And in an effort to pull myself out of those low states, I sought after those spiritual encounters even more, experiencing that temporary high followed by the subsequent spirit-crushing crash.

That, my friends, is what happens when you partake of ungodly fruit from a demonic tree. So much for the “tree of life,” huh? Was this tree that I was eating from actually the “tree of the knowledge of good and evil”? I don’t know. Probably not, for certain reasons that will have to be discussed at another time, if at all. But I do know that it was ungodly fruit from a demonic tree, and it was just one of many things that were happening to me that were bringing me harm.

Once the Father graciously showed me my sin and the occult practices I had been engaging in, I repented! And that was the beginning of when God began to heal me from the inside out. Like I wrote before: I’m still healing, but it’s only by the grace of God, Who pulled me out of that situation, that I’m as far along in my healing path as I am now. I’ve got a long way to go, but I’ve also come a long way.

Now the question has to be asked: why did I have such negative effects from going to this heavenly place and eating from this fruit, when other people have said they have had good effects?

The answer to this question has already been answered in our book.

☛ See:You Will Know Them by Their Fruit,” specifically, “A Spiritual Drug and a Spiritual High.”

But let me add something else to this equation. There are likely many reasons why I suffered ill effects when other people may not feel as badly as I did. However, one major reason that keeps coming back to me, time and time again, is this: I love the truth. I do not want to live in deception, even when the deception feels good, and I have constantly asked my Heavenly Father to reveal to me where I am going wrong in my life. And He always has. So as difficult as it was to go through breakdown after breakdown after breakdown in the so-called deliverance counseling with Duval; and as much as I say that I would never want anyone to go through what I went through; God, in His mercy, allowed me to break down so that I would not be fooled and stay in a place where He did not want me. In His mercy, He allowed me to suffer in that situation to eventually and ultimately save me from the sin that I was involved in. And to Him, I say, “THANK YOU, HEAVENLY FATHER!”

So take it from someone who has been there and participated in these occult activities: what feels good is not always what is good!

Doctrines of Demons: Exposing Christian Witchcraft, Section Three, Chapter I: Spirit Man, Upheaval and Subtractions

To quote from our book: “Good feelings do not necessarily equal Biblically sound and spiritually safe, and what is real is not always truth that comes from God.”

Stick with what is spiritually safe and with what will bring you true healing and deliverance: the truth that is written in the Word of God that has been properly interpreted within context. And if you make it your mission to always line everything up with His Word and to keep your relationship with the Heavenly Father your main focus in life, you won’t be led astray by doctrines of demons.

Loren ♥

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17 thoughts on “Q&A: Gateways

  1. I thought it was interestingly out mentioned the ego. I have noticed that many (Although not all) people I know that are into the new age thing have massive egos. I notice it most often when I go to Trader Joe’s,, Whole Foods or the new age section of a book store. There is just this cold, egocentric aura about many of the people you run into these places. Sorry if I generalized.

    Liked by 2 people

    1. Yeah, it certainly seems to be a common characteristic with a lot of “new-agers.” I think it goes hand-in-hand with the theosophical quest for knowledge: the more they think they know, the more highly they think of themselves, and the more likely they are to look down on other people who they think know less. The arrogance or over-inflated ego doesn’t always display itself outwardly, though. For me, it was more of a heart thing, not so much how I acted or what I said in public. Although, my arrogance would come out in words and actions at times. This is just my experience, tho. 🙂

      Liked by 2 people

  2. Hey Loren. I hope this is not too off topic, but what do you think of the use of marijuana. Is smoking marijuana opening a doorway to evil things. Also, and this is probably even more off topic. I attend AA meetings, and there is a lot of talk about God and/or higher power, but not much talk about Jesus. However, I see people who pray everyday, and they have real peace of mind. So my question is. If these people aren’t praying in Jesus name, does God hear them? Or are they really achieving peace of mind through Satan?

    Liked by 1 person

    1. About AA: we’ve got a post in the works about AA.

      About marijuana: like many other substances, it can be a doorway for the demonic, and some people are more susceptible than others.

      About praying: there are many people who practice the occult and pray to various entities, as well as others who are atheist, who feel a sense of peace. Feelings aren’t always a good indication that what we are doing is of God.

      Liked by 2 people

  3. If you are going to examine AA. You should also check out the Oxford Group. That is what AA came from. But you may already know that. I smoked Marijuana for a couple of years in the 70’s, but during high school freshmen year I had this horrible experience where I was at the drive-in, and I went into a complete panic because I couldn’t tell the difference between the cartoon that was playing and what was really going on around me. I also looked into the sky and the sky was green Santa Claus wrapping paper. I started having emotional flashbacks a few weeks later and wound up with a feeling of panic that lasted for months. Then for several years I alternated between feeling ok, and being in a panic. Oddly enough I also started getting freaked out whenever I heard the song Stairway To Heaven, which has apparently had some satanic things attached to it. You must think I am really crazy now right?

    Liked by 1 person

  4. Just want to say thanks again for what you and Carolyn are doing. Life gets busy, yet it is always good to read your works and continue learning and growing spiritually to better live in accordance with Gods Will, thru his Son our Lord Jesus Christ’s blessing. Love and Peace.

    Liked by 3 people

  5. HI Loren
    I found Ian Clayton’s teaching on YouTube recently. I was at a very intimate place with the Lord and was desiring more. I wanted desperately to see “my angel” at night and tried the exercises at night. My daughter has anxiety disorder and was sleeping with me in bed. She started getting many nightmares during this period. Anyhow, I still believed in “speaking tongues”, of which I have repented, regularly to have my spirit grow during this time. I remember that I woke up one morning and my whole body was vibrating, which I recognized was part of Ian’s teaching with our bodies that need to connect or align with heaven’s vibration. It scared the hobby geebies out of meand about two nights after that I woke up in the middle of the night feeling as if a war was taking place over my body! I could feel how my soul (I think) was being pulled out of my body, but something was preventing it. This totally freaked me out!! That’s when I knew that I have been greatly deceived. This is how I came to you and Carolyn’s website. I can’t tell you enough of how much your website means to me. We as a church have to WAKE UP! I realized through this experience that satanism used “desire” no matter how holy and pure to deceive us and through desire he hooks us. My desire was to get closer to God. In Romans 7 it states that sin found an opportunity through the commands. The commandments of God is good and holy and sin found an occasion through it. I was molested as child and went to “Christian” counseling for many years so that I could be integrated. I also myself did counseling for 16 years. I recognize that the Theophostic ministry also has a “Jesus” entering into our past experiences to come and heal…nothing short of demonic. Do you know this ministry? Iwould like to hear your take on it, because I have friends who goes to counsellors doing Theophostic on them.

    Also, what is your take on Madam Guyon? I know she was Catholic and that alone should probably disqualify her,because she adored her with Jesus. However, people like A.W Tozer and Leanord Ravenhill and Andrew Murray read her books and endorsed it, which confuses me…any thoughts you’d like to share?

    Bless you and Carolyn…I got a good wake up (to even the elect will be deceived)

    Liked by 1 person

    1. Hi Pietra,

      Thank you so much for sharing your testimony regarding being involved with Ian Clayton’s heretical teachings. I can relate to the experiences you shared, and I’m glad that the Heavenly Father opened your eyes and delivered you!

      I’m familiar with Theophostic ministry. The “counseling” style that Duval uses (my former “counselor”), as advocated by Preston Bailey, his mentor, is reminiscent of Theophostic counseling. They do not call it Theophostic counseling (they call it “deliverance counseling”), but it has some of the same elements that are found within Theophostic counseling. Particularly in the fact that they “invite Jesus into the memory.” This is something that is actually a dangerous thing to do, and you are right: fundamentally, it is demonic. In our book, Carolyn and I give a thorough explanation of why “asking Jesus into the memory” (or “into our dissociative system,” or “into our heart,” for that matter….) is not of God. You can read our book here: https://carolynandloren.com/resources-ecw/book/

      But basically, this exercise (which is an “occult visualization” exercise, btw) is opening the spiritual space of the individual to being invaded by a demonic entity that is disguised as Jesus, Yeshua, or any other translation of the name. I can’t say that everyone who goes through this exercise of “asking Jesus into the memory” is invaded by a demonic entity who is disguised as “Jesus.” I haven’t done a survey of everyone who has ever been through that type of counseling, so I can’t say for sure that this happens to everyone in such a dramatic way as it did for me and others that I know. But it most certainly can happen, and it did happen to me, as well as to others that I have known, some of whom are still involved with Duval’s “deliverance counseling.” Furthermore, since I had been previously programmed through mind-control programming, it triggered a latent “Jesus Programming,” which ended up being very dangerous, leading me further into Luciferian doctrines. And again, we write about all of this in our book.

      But even if people do not have the same types of negative experiences that I and others have had, the act of “asking Jesus into the memory” is not Biblical. And it is not necessary in order to find healing. And so it’s just best to stay completely away from things that are not of God and that have no sound Biblical basis, and stick with what is Scriptural, even in the realm of mental health. And, yes, in our book, Carolyn and I talk about how to find freedom and healing in a BIBLICAL way. 🙂

      I’m not very familiar with Madam Guyon, and I certainly haven’t studied her works. (If I have, I don’t remember it) But if she was a “mystic” like people claim, and if she was involved in meditative prayers and other occult practices of the sort, then she wasn’t of God, regardless of how spiritual or kind or “good” she was. Some occultists can be what we believe are”good people” (from outward appearances, at least), and they can lead very spiritual lives and are devout in their “prayers” (meditation). But if what they are believing, practicing, and advocating doesn’t line up with the Word of God, then it’s not of God, no matter how “good” it feels or sounds. It’s always best to just stick with what the Bible says, and not go outside of that. Otherwise, as you’ve recently found out, we’re opening ourselves up deception.

      Thanks for your comments! Blessings ❤

      Liked by 1 person

  6. Hello Loren and Carolyn. I found your book online yesterday while googling “courtrooms of heaven” and I am so glad that I found it! My stepmom and my dad have been telling me for the past few years that they go into the courts of heaven and they study kingdom dynamics, and they describe everything that you’ve stated in your book. As I’m finishing your book today, I’m nauseated and extremely concerned about my parents, as they’ve use an exorbitant amount of the language included in the Luciferian doctrine. First, let me tell you that I am a born-again Christian, who has been a follower of Jesus Christ for 28 years, and I understand the Word of God very much in the same way that you two ladies do as you’ve described throughout your book. My parents claim to be born-again Christians, but obviously they’re not believing in and following the One true Heavenly Father God.

    I’m going to visit them next Wednesday in Nevada for what was supposed to be me helping them with a medical issue and to plan a surgery for my dad. They told me last week that he no longer wants to get the surgery. Okay, that’s fine. But, I’ve already purchased my plane ticket and promised them I was still coming to spend time with them. NOW, that I’ve read your book, read all of the referenced documents by Paul Fahy, and found out exactly what’s going on with my parents, I’m rethinking going out there. I’ve made an appointment to speak with my pastor tomorrow to explain to him this entire situation and to ask for his counsel. And I’m praying and asking God to help me. I must admit that I’m becoming a bit fearful of going, because now that I know the facts, it’s overwhelming!! I feel accountable to talk with them about what they’re actually doing and believing, and to present them with the Truth of the gospel of Jesus Christ. I can’t fathom NOT speaking to them about this and letting them continue on the path to eternal hellfire, and standing before God and explaining to Him that I was scared to do it or that I didn’t want to upset them. I hope you know what I mean here. My parents have absolutely no friends in their area and they don’t go to church, and I’m the only family member who has a functional relationship with them. They get all their information/teaching from the internet, Ian Clayton, Jack Hayford, and Bill Johnson, and Sozo ministries of Bethel Church, and one lifetime friend of my stepmom’s who supposedly introduced her to all of this (she travels to third world countries as a “deliverance counselor” as she was taught via Sozo ministries).

    Over the last few months, I’ve been studying to become a Certified Biblical Counselor, and I understand that situations such as my parents may arise at some point in my future counseling, but right now is really REAL! Do you have any suggestions as as how to approach my parents?? What do I first say to them?? Over the past few years, when they say something that I know is not sound Scriptural doctrine, I always try to explain it properly to them, and they seem to receive it. They tell me they trust me, love me, believe that I understand Scripture, and that if they didn’t have me praying for them they would be lost. So, there is a strong foundation here to build upon, but I’m not quite sure how to begin building the framework. I hope you’re understanding what I mean. Please help!! Thank you for your time, and I truly hope to hear from you soon!! May the Lord bless you and keep you.


  7. Unless it’s sitting in a pew listening to the same repeated Old Testament drivel, don’t do this and don’t do that, singing two fast and then one slow song, giving an offering of your money or praying (god forbid you don’t include in Jesus name on the end, that is the only way they can come true) about mostly pointless things that don’t help humanity whatsoever it is always labeled “demonic”. For goodness sake people , wake up to who you are, your father creates incomprehensible multiverses and then you as his chief achievement in his own image.
    You should be as he is, omnipotent, omnipresent, multi deminsional, inter time dimensional and over all creation. This creation groans for the revealing of the sons of god. Not book and law observers.
    The only thing that is demonic, is stealing sons of god, they are nothing more than sheep clones, who must think everything they are told to.
    If you can’t think for yourself, you are controlled. If you can’t question why to everyth8ng, you are controlled.
    Give Ian a break, I have spent time with him and attended his conferences and he is the real deal people, he’s just 9ne I’d the few that woke up and remembered who he really is, who creates him and what he as sent here to do. Let the fear grid go


    1. Hi John,

      Thanks for taking the time to comment. As per our comment policy (https://carolynandloren.com/home/comment-policy/), I deleted the link you shared, but thanks for taking the time to share your thoughts.

      I’m assuming that since you referred to the Old Testament as “drivel,” then you aren’t a Christian…?

      At any rate, Carolyn and I wrote our book “Doctrines of Demons: Exposing Christian Witchcraft” (including the section on “Gateways”) from our own experiences in the charismatic church, charismatic “christian” groups (such as the groups Ian Clayton hangs in), as well as from our experiences in working directly with the demonic. We know from personal experiences how the demonic work in trying to deceive Christians, and we wrote our book to warn people away from those things that are very clearly against Scripture (not only the OT Scripture that you have dismissed as drivel, but also all throughout the NT).

      However, if after reading the entirety of what we have to say in our book, you still prefer to practice and promote your doctrines of demons, then certainly, that is your right. It saddens Carolyn and I, but at this point, all we can do about the ones who refuse to see or love the truth is pray that the Heavenly Father will open their eyes to the satanic deception they have fallen under before it is too late.

      I do appreciate you taking the time to share your thoughts, however. I hope you have a good day.

      Loren Grace ❤


  8. Hello,
    I’d want to know what you think about visions and dreams. Going by what has been shared here, some of the experiences by the apostles look so suspicious…like demonic! How do we know the truth, seeing that the book of Revelations and some of the christians like Phillip and Peter had episodes like astral travel/projections? John had something close to an ascension…astral travel, where he visited realms that look questionable and frightening, going by submissions here!!


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