Answering Questions About Various People


We get many questions from people asking us about specific people and what we know about them. Everyone from politicians to well-known preachers to obscure internet “prophets” to new-age occultists and even about those who have died — many people want to know if we have heard of these individuals and what we think about the messages they share.

Some examples:

“What is your take on this guy?”

“What do you personally know about this politician?”

“What do you think of this preacher and his church?”

“I can’t find anything wrong with what so-and-so is teaching, and even though they are connected to people who are teaching false doctrine, I don’t think the person themselves is too bad. What do you think?”

“Can you speak of this man or this woman?”

“What do you think about so-and-so’s teachings?”

“Do you know about this particular occultist? What do you think about what they say?”

“Have you heard of this man or woman? Is what they are teaching the truth?”

“What do you think about this ministry?”

“Do you know anything about this organization?”


There is a saying that you may be familiar with — “Give a man a fish and he’ll eat for a day. Teach him to fish and he’ll eat for a lifetime.”

Keeping this principle in mind, here’s the deal:

● Aside from a few exceptions when we were young, we have not had a lot of interaction with united States politicians.

● There are many well-known “Christian” preachers that we simply don’t follow, therefore we aren’t up to date on all the doctrines they preach.

● There are countless occultists (many of whom fallaciously label themselves a “Christian”) that we have never heard of, therefore we can’t have a reasonably intelligent discussion about what they believe in and what they share with others.

Bottom line, there is no possible way that we can know of or be familiar with every single individual that you — the collective “you” of the individuals who have emailed us — are familiar with.

(Although, as a help to you, the reader, we have a “Watch List” on this website whereby we name certain individuals/organizations/ministries we are familiar with, and we occasionally update it.)

We could do a quick internet search — and we have — on the names that people have given us that we aren’t familiar with, and give you a quick “that person is involved in the occult and stay away from them” response. But what good does this do if you don’t understand how to discern this for yourself? What good does it do if you don’t understand why the message that they are spreading is not of God? And to be perfectly clear, we aren’t going to spend hours and hours immersing ourselves in false doctrine just so we can explain to you why what they are teaching is occult. We don’t have the time or the desire.

However, we wrote a book that you can use as a tool to help you discern for yourself the messages that you are receiving from other people.

Let me write that again, but louder: we wrote a book that you can use as a tool to help you discern for YOURSELF the messages that you are receiving from other people!

Okay… normal voice now.



What we are trying to say is that we’d rather teach you to fish (teach you to discern for yourself) rather than give you a fish (tell you what to think about the people that you come in contact with). Our book is that teaching manual, and we spent six long months writing it for your benefit, with the enemy and his unfortunate human puppets attacking us every step of the way!

Even though in our book we focused on exposing occult doctrines that are prevalent within charismatic groups, churches, ministries, and deliverance counseling, and compared them to typical occult doctrines that have been around for centuries, the same principles that we wrote about in our book is true for anyone who is operating within the occult, no matter if they proclaim to be a Christian or not. So please use our book as a tool to educate yourself. Generally speaking, this is much better than us telling you what to think about this person or that person or this ministry or that organization.

There have been some people express annoyance that we keep pointing them back to our book when they ask us questions. Just a couple of naysayers, but the complainers always seem to be louder than the supporters. The enemy (Satan) certainly knows how to use people to hit you when you’re already feeling down. Although we know where this is coming from, it is still discouraging. However, we aren’t going to stop suggesting people read our book, because the whole reason we wrote the book is to answer your questions. So why wouldn’t we direct people to our book, particularly in the cases where the questions being asked are directly addressed in our book?

☛ Reminder: We have made our book available to you for free to read on our blog or on PDF. Follow this link for access:

Initially, our book was to be a response mainly to the questions we had received asking for more detail as to why we dissociated ourselves from Bride Ministries, to serve as a warning to those who were still caught up in deception, and to offer hope and solutions to those who have been deeply wounded by that so-called “ministry.” But as we began writing, we quickly realized that since the web of deception goes much, much deeper than just one group of ungodly so-called “counselors and ministers” and much, much deeper than just one sham of a “ministry,” that the book would answer a lot of questions that people have sent to us. So this is why we keep referring people back to it.

So for those who don’t know what our book is all about, we want you to know: YES, this book will help you identify infiltrators, false teachers, and false doctrines. No, we don’t give you a list of names. We do make a passing reference to a small number of people, both alive and dead, but it is mainly for the purpose of referring you to to their respective websites, videos, or literature so that you can go and see for yourself where we got our information, and that what we write in our book is true. Even so, many of those references are indirect mentions. But although we don’t give you a list of people to watch out for, we do give you tools so that you can identify infiltrators, false teachers, and false doctrine that you come across.

Summary of the Tools in Section One

Each concept builds on the one that came before, so in order to understand each topic, we suggest that you read the entire book, preferably from beginning to end, at least the first time around. It will be much more difficult to understand how each subject relates to the next if you aren’t able to grasp the foundational points presented in the sections that came before.

But to give you an overview, here are some of the tools we give you in Section One:

1. Classifying “Christian” witches.

This chapter will help you understand and identify basic types of occult infiltrators, and outlines some of the fundamentals of how they operate.

2. Defining “Christian” witchcraft.

This chapter will help you understand that there are many self-proclaimed Christians who are operating out of a spirit of witchcraft, how this takes place, and two big reasons why they and others are fooled: religious programming and demons or fallen angels who go by the name “Jesus” or other translations of the name. This will help you recognize these things in other people, as well as in your own life.

3. Detailing the goals that “Christian” witches have.

This short chapter will help you recognize some of the ways infiltrators are trying to lead you astray, and what Satan’s ultimate end-goal is.

4. You Will Know Them by Their Fruit.”

This chapter will help you understand what the fruit of the occultist is and how it compares to the fruit of the Spirit. It can also help you recognize the false fruit of the occultist, and why their fruit is false, even though through our human understanding it sometimes can appear to be of God.

Summary of the Tools in Section Two

In Section Two, we give you more tools by describing six different ungodly motivations that we have noticed with charismatic occultists. However, these characteristics can be applied to anyone who is operating out of a spirit of witchcraft, regardless of whether they call themselves “Christian” or not. If people’s motivations are impure and if they are focusing on and seeking after the wrong things, then they are dangerously vulnerable to becoming entangled in false doctrine. So when you understand why these motivations do not line up with what is Scriptural, then you can recognize when you or others are susceptible to being led into occult doctrine.

The six different motivations of charismatic occultists that we detailed are:

1. They are ego-based: man-centered, not God-centered.

2. They are focused on gifts and abilities and how to develop those gifts and abilities.

3. They desire spiritual experiences.

4. They seek after spiritual manifestations.

5.  They seek after going to heavenly places and supernatural realms. (Also see: “Supernatural Realms: the Origin.“)

6. They are warrior-minded, focused on a false spiritual warfare.

We are not saying these are the only motivators, but they certainly are the main ones that we have seen and experienced in charismatic occult circles. We have also seen and experienced that these motivating characteristics are fundamental within other occult groups that do not consider themselves to be “Christian,” so what we have written can be applied in different situations and to different groups. Use the knowledge about these motivators that we give you in our book to help you discern the spirit out of which others (and yourself) are operating.

Summary of the Tools in Section Three

Then in Section Three, we give you even more tools, and went into considerable detail with several teachings and practices that are common with charismatic occultists, and describing why they are occult. But again, these teachings and practices are not just within charismatic groups — they are foundational to the beliefs of many different types of occult groups, whether or not they claim to be Christian.

The teachings and practices we detailed are:

1. Spirit Man

This teaching uses common occult principles that have been around for many, many years, and we go into detail describing them. If you hear people talking of the things that we write about in this chapter, regardless of whether they use the term “spirit man” or not, then you will know where they are coming from and why these teachings are dangerous and unscriptural.

2. Shining Ones

This is a common charismatic occult teaching that has been renamed and repackaged slightly. It is very similar to the “little gods” teachings, and if you understand the content of this chapter, you will understand what this and similar teachings are all about.

In this chapter, we also go into detail concerning “realms,” because this is important to understanding what is going on in the spirit world and why it is happening when charismatic occultists (or any type of occultist) are channeling the demonic and engaging in so-called “kingdom building.”

As with the Spirit Man doctrine, if you hear people talking of the things that we expound upon in this chapter, regardless of the specific words they are using to describe those occult principles, then you will know where they are coming from and why what they are sharing with you is dangerous and ungodly.

3. Seat of Dominion

This is a teaching that is nearly identical to the “third eye” teachings, and the results of engaging in this seat of dominion activity are indistinguishable as to what happens when the “third eye” or the “head/crown center” is opened. If you understand the contents of this chapter, you will understand what is really happening when you open yourself up to this deception, even when this occult doctrine is being sold to you in a “Christian” package. You will also be able to understand where self-proclaimed “Christians” are coming from when they start talking about the things we speak of in this chapter, and you will be able to discern that they are teaching occult doctrine.

4. Gateways

This is an occult teaching that is heavily disguised in a “Christian” package, but if you understand the contents of this chapter, you will be able to recognize silver-tongued devils who claim to come in the Spirit of God, preaching the feel-good doctrines of theologies such as “gateways” that are absolutely contrary to the Word of God.

5. Heavenly Places

This chapter will help you understand that not everything that is real is of God, and you will be less likely to be swayed by experiences — either of others or of yourself — that do not line up with the Word of God.

6. Spirit Travel and Seeing in the Spirit

This chapter will help you see that “spirit travel” and “seeing in the spirit” is just another term for what occultists often call “astral travel,” and in this way, when you hear of others speaking of this, you will understand what they are talking about and out of which spirit they are operating.

7. Dream Insertion

This chapter will open your eyes to this particular tactic of the enemy, and the reasons why people engage in this occult activity.

8. Angels

This chapter will help further reinforce what we have written in various places throughout the book, that these are not angels of God, but are demonic entities that are leading people into delusion and reinforcing that delusion. So when you hear people talking about angels, you will be better equipped to discern whether what they speak about is of God or not. Or, if you have an “angelic” encounter, you will be more likely to be discerning of such an encounter.

9. Jesus

This chapter will help further reinforce what we have written in various places throughout the book, that this is a false “Jesus” — an antichrist — that is leading people into delusion and reinforcing that delusion by leading people into spiritual experiences, activities, and doctrines that are not Biblical. If you read this chapter with understanding, you will be able to start discerning when others (or yourself) are following a false Jesus (an antichrist).

10. Great Cloud of Witnesses / Necromancy

This chapter will help you understand that the charismatic “great cloud of witnesses” is simply a way to thinly disguise necromancy, and it explains some of the different ways this can take place so you can recognize this when you come across it with other people.

11. Spiritual Battle / Spiritual Warfare

This chapter will help shed light on “spiritual warfare,” something that is common in today’s so-called “Christian” world. We explain why the modern-day charismatic “spiritual warfare” is not Biblical, and how to engage in Biblical spiritual warfare. If you read this chapter with understanding, you will be able to very easily spot people (including yourself) who are in error and being used by the demonic concerning such ungodly warfare.

12. Courtrooms of Heaven

This chapter briefly describes the ungodly, unbiblical teachings of “courtrooms of heaven.” If you read this chapter with understanding, you will know that when people speak of the types of things written about in this chapter, what they are engaging in is not of God.

As a reminder: because so many occult methods that we expose in our book are used in this “courtrooms” teaching, reading the previous content of the book will help you understand this chapter and why participating in this unscriptural teaching is so dangerous.

Summary of the Tools in Section Four

In this section, we give you different types of tools that will be helpful in many different ways to you personally, as well as give you an idea of the difficulties that some people have and why they are having those difficulties.

The people who will find this section most helpful are:

● Those who are dissociative.
● Those who have been deceived by the doctrines of demons presented in the first three sections, whether they are dissociative or not.
● Those who have friends and loved ones who are or have been deceived by doctrines of demons.
● Those who have sought out, are going through, or have gone through what is commonly known as “deliverance counseling.”
● Those who are helping survivors, whether as a support person, a friend, or a counselor.
● Those who simply want to educate themselves on the subjects presented in this section, as well as learn more about some key Biblical concepts.

The things we detail in this chapter are:

1. End-Time Programming

In this chapter, we first explain reprogramming and programming and how this takes place through the doctrines of demons that we detailed in the first three sections.

☛ Reminder: Each concept builds on the one that came before, and it will be much more difficult to understand how each subject relates to the next if you aren’t able to grasp the foundational points presented in the sections that came before. Therefore, we highly recommend that you read the entire book from beginning to end, at least the first time around. 🙂

We then list several different types of end-time programming that we know of, and briefly explain how they work and why they are important to the overall plans of Satan. This chapter was not written with the intent to share a comprehensive list of end-time programming, but we wrote about the most important ones that we know of and have come across. They include:

Religious Programming
Fractal Programming
● Carousel Programming
Spirit Man Programming
Seat of Dominion Programming
Jesus Programming
Angel Programming
Dragon Programming

2. Finding Freedom

This chapter is dedicated to helping people find freedom specifically from end-time programming that is connecting them to the spirit of the antichrist, and freedom from the control and influence of the demonic, including fallen angels. But the points in this chapter are basic, and can be used as a general outline on finding freedom and healing from a myriad of spiritual issues.

Since the issues for those who are dissociative are more deeply-rooted than for those who are not dissociative, we address these two groups of people in separate sections. However, both sections will be helpful to both groups of people.

3. Additional Points about Resisting and Finding Freedom from the Fallen

This short chapter was written with the goal of “encouragement” in mind, and is directed specifically to the individual who is dissociative and having a difficult time extracting themselves from an ongoing relationship with the fallen. However, even those who are non-dissociative will find helpful the principles that we speak of in this chapter.

4. Backlash

This chapter explains what can be expected after you renounce being in unity with the spirit of the antichrist, and as you renounce and cut the ties with the demonic and the fallen angels. The major points we address in this chapter are:

● The basic reasons for backlash.
● The types of backlash, including: demonic attacks, demonic visitations, human attacks, human visitations, and backlash from the internal system of those who have dissociative disorders.
How to deal with backlash.

5. Withdrawals

Here, we give a short explanation that since being hooked up to and aligned with the spirit of the antichrist is much like being hooked up to an I.V. of narcotics, one unfortunate side-effect of disconnecting from or taking oneself out of alignment and agreement with Satan’s agenda can be withdrawals. This chapter is meant to encourage those going through withdrawals to recognize that while it is not comfortable, is it common, and that they can overcome this with the help of their Heavenly Father.

6. Testing the Spirits

Since many people only use one Scripture to “test the spirits,” and since this “testing” is commonly misunderstood, this chapter will give you several other Scriptures that you can use to help you accurately and Biblically “test the spirits.” If you are armed (protected) with the truth of God’s Word that has been properly interpreted within context, you will not be likely to fall into deception from ungodly spirits and those people who are operating out of the demonic.

7. How to Pray

Many times, people get caught up in practicing witchcraft and the doctrines of demons that we write about in our book because they feel mired down in their problems and they feel as if their prayers aren’t effective. Therefore, they seek out people who claim to be effective at prayer, or seek out what are supposed to be “powerful prayers.” As we detail throughout our book, many times these things are witchcraft, or lead people into witchcraft, as they seek solutions to problems they have, but those solutions are based upon occult doctrines. This includes seeking out “deliverance ministries” that are not praying and operating according to Scripture, and using a false “spiritual warfare.”

Our response to this problem is to remind you of the solution: prayer according to the Word of God. In this chapter, we explain how the false “prayers” of occultists (and those who have been deceived by the doctrines of demons those occultists are teaching) are operating as witchcraft. And we point people back to the Word of God, doing a short study on what prayer should look like and sound like, using the example that Jesus gave to us as recorded in Matthew 6:5-15.

8. Other Helps Regarding Dissociative Disorders

In this chapter, we give some more in-depth help and advise to those who suffer from dissociative disorders based on our opinion, experience, and understanding. (Please read our full disclaimer!) This chapter may also be helpful to those who are counseling those who have dissociative disorders, as well as those who have family or friends with dissociative disorders.

The chapter is divided into two separate parts:

A. An Overview to Understanding Dissociation and D.I.D.

B. Thoughts on Healing

This section gives some general advise based on our own experiences and trials and errors that those who are dissociative may find helpful. We share our thoughts about system work (how to do it and how to not do it); some advise about what we call “heavy work,” grounding and processing; some thoughts about support persons; and some additional thoughts for support persons.

Summary of the Tools in Section Five

The main tools in this last section are found in the first, third, and fourth chapters.

1. Supernatural Realms — the Origin

In this chapter, we share our very personal and painful journey of our experiences in “deliverance ministry,” and the true origin of the teachings on “realms” as our former “deliverance coach” taught (and, as of this writing, is still teaching and expanding upon). Although this chapter was very difficult to write, we wrote it with specific people in mind: those who have been or are currently being duped by the same “deliverance minister” and his team as we were, particularly within the so-called “counseling” situation.

2. Short Bios of the Authors

3. Glossary

Here, we list many different “buzzwords and phrases” that are commonly used by “christian” occultists, helping you to decode what they are talking about and to understand the true meaning behind some of their words.

4. More Scripture to Study

We end the book with more Scripture warning those who are practicing witchcraft, even under a “christian” cloak, of what the Bible says concerning these occult practices. It is our prayer that these Scriptures will prick the heart of those who read them, encouraging them to turn back to God, repent of their sin, and walk in submission to the will of the Father and in obedience to His Word.


This is what being led by the Spirit of God looks like: having a relationship with your Heavenly Father and trusting in and being obedient to His Word. This is made possible only through Jesus Christ. (For more on being led by the Spirit of God, see Romans 8 and Galatians 5:16-25.)

Q&A_discernment.pngBut how can we be obedient to His Word if we don’t know His Word, and how can we discern what is against His Word if we don’t understand His Word? So then, discernment begins first by knowing and understanding the Word of God, and then by aligning everything with His Word (the Bible) that has been properly interpreted within context.

This is the beginning of discernment and it is vital!

The deception of the occult is not that it is not real. The deception of the occult is that it is not truth. But very often, particularly with so-called “Christian” occultists, Scripture is perverted and twisted out of context so that it appears to be true. Sometimes this perversion of Scripture is obvious, but many times it is not. That is why it is so deceptive! If it were obvious, it wouldn’t be deceptive! But if you learn to line everything up with the Word of God that has been properly interpreted within context, you will be less likely to fall for the tricks and lies of the enemy and for the tricks and lies of people who are being used by the enemy.

It is our hope and prayer that our book will help you recognize and discern the tactics of the enemy. But over and above even this, we hope and pray that our book points you to the Solution to every problem you face in life: your Heavenly Father.

We pray that the blessing of a relationship with your Heavenly Father will overtake you, that His will is done in your life, and that you learn to walk in obedience and in submission to His will.

Loren and Carolyn ♥

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3 thoughts on “Answering Questions About Various People

  1. I’m still reading your book but I wanted to reach out and contact you and tell you thank you! I grew up in a Pentecostal Church and I saw some of what you’re talking about here. Then I got to the chapter on fruits of witchcraft and I could see that this was what my life looked like until I got out of that church 20 years ago. I turned away fRom church for a long time because of the abuses I suffered at the hands of “ministers” who weren’t really servants of God. More recently, five years ago I was delivered from actual witchcraft – I got led so astray that I got involved in tarot cards and the like and was even doing it professionally, to the point where I became possessed. I knew something was wrong so I cried out to God and he told me it was witchcraft. I repented and I’ve never looked back. That will be five years ago this Easter.
    Since then so much has happened in my life! I love the Lord and attempt to follow him with all my heart. I’ve beem dismayed to find that every church but one that I’ve gone to, the “ministers” are manipulators or are fleshly and not really following the lord. I believe we are in the great apostasy. And now I’m attempting and praying to get closer to the Lord and he’s brought me to your book. I have prayed to eradicate all the teaching of men from me and believed I had until I found this book. Now I’m seeing that a lot of what I was taught as a child was wrong and I’m very grateful! Please pray for my husband Michael. The Lord brought us together after thirty years apart – he went to that original Pentecostal Church too and was also badly burnt. He is also still trying to sort everything out, what was true and what was false.
    One thing I would say is that you focus very much on charismatics but there are so many abuses and so many “ministers” who have called THEMSELVES, even among evangelical and mainline Christianity that it’s sickening. It isn’t limited to charismatic churches. Neither is the resulting witchcraft. Perhaps you address this later in your book, I’m not sure. But one “minister” we were duped by for about six months was extremely fleshly and it was trickling down to his entire congregation. Rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft because it’s attempting to force God to do what you want. “Going over Gods’ head” and going to seminary because you want to be a minister because you want the praise of men, control or money qualifies too I’m afraid. And it was shocking to me to figure this out because I personally would be TERRIFIED to “call” myself. Is there no fear of god?!? They are preaching a false gospel, these people. The false gospel of cheap grace. It’s everywhere. There’s no accountability. And it turns my stomach.
    We are in the process of starting a ministry at the campground where we live. We believe the Lord led us to this point. We will be doing this in lieu of church. Please pray for us. Thank you again for writing this. I’m grateful to have found SOMEONE who went through something similar to what I went through.

    God bless.

    Liked by 1 person

    1. Hi, thanks for reading and for sharing your thoughts. 🙂

      You said: “you focus very much on charismatics but there are so many abuses and so many “ministers” who have called THEMSELVES, even among evangelical and mainline Christianity that it’s sickening. It isn’t limited to charismatic churches. Neither is the resulting witchcraft. Perhaps you address this later in your book, I’m not sure.”

      This is very true. “Christian witchcraft” within charismatic groups (and this includes Pentecostals — pentecostalism is very much charismatic) is what we were focusing on. We can only write from our own experiences and understanding, and the book had to have a particular focus and audience. So we limited ourselves to “charismatic” teachings. However, in the very first chapter titled “Purpose of this Book,” we addressed what you are talking about. We wrote:

      “The spirit of witchcraft isn’t a problem that is unique only to the charismatic movement; however, this book will deal with the spirit of witchcraft specifically within the context of charismatic churches, ministries, and “deliverance counseling,” particularly that which is aimed at purportedly helping survivors of ritual abuse and mind-control agendas. We will do this by identifying the occult goals, motivations, teachings and practices, and common words or phrases used by such people, so aware Christians can identify it in their own lives and in others.

      Furthermore, the doctrines of demons that have infiltrated the Christian church through the charismatic movement are teachings and doctrines that are common to many different occult religions, and have been for at least centuries, if not millennia. Therefore, many of the subjects laid out in this book will be relevant to other types of teachings, and may be helpful in helping you to recognize occult teachings in both Christian and nonChristian religions.”

      We’ve had people from all walks of Christian denominations, some charismatic and some not, who have told us that they relate to what we have written. This is because the things we wrote about, even though we came from a “charismatic view point,” are doctrines of demons that have infiltrated Christianity as a whole.

      I pray the book is a blessing to you.

      Blessings ❤

      Liked by 1 person

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